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Shelters Respond to Winograd Criticism

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ORLANDO -- The creation of a no-kill society is the battle cry for one animal activist author. Nathan Winograd’s new book blames shelters for not doing enough to save healthy, adoptable animals. But the finger-pointing has gotten a reaction from the shelter community.

Winograd roamed the halls of the San Francisco Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals when it became the first no-kill shelter in the country, 13 years ago. He chronicled the success in his book: “Redemption: the Myth of Pet Overpopulation and The No Kill Revolution in America.”

"Sheltering mostly fail because a shelter's primary job, its number one function, is to save the lives of animals.” Winograd said. “And every time a shelter kills a homeless animal that could be saved, and should be given a loving new home, that to me is a profound failure.”

Winograd believes every shelter in the United States can become no-kill. He blames the sheltering system for creating and continuing a cyclical process that euthanizes healthy, adoptable animals for reasons such as (limited) space and overpopulation, which he calls a myth.

Michael Markarian president of the Humane Society of the U.S. Legislative Fund argues that there are several factors adding to the challenge of reaching no-kill.

“This is a complex issue and rather than point fingers, we need to look at all the different components that add up to this problem,” says Markarian. "It's not a myth for shelter directors and animal control directors who find unwanted litters of puppies and kittens in streets. This is a serious problem. We need to provide solutions, not just rhetoric."

In opposition, Winograd questions why there are pet stores in virtually every community. “The fact that there are commercials sources (for purchasing) animals, indicates people are more motivate by profit, (than) saving lives."

Winograd believes shelters are victims of what he calls "institutional defeatism" -- managers and systems stuck in "old ways" of running a shelter.

"Because of bureaucratic inertia and a sense of defeatism, and since a lot of shelters aren't willingly embracing this philosophy, what I believe it'll unfortunately take, is a new generation of people to take over and reclaim the institutions because they will have no allegiance to the status quo,” Winograd said.

But Markarian is quick to point out the “tremendous amount of forward progress made by the shelters” over the past 30 years.

“We used to kill 15 million dogs and cats in shelters in the 1970s. Today, it's about four million and we need to keep going (and) pushing forward.” says Markarian. “There's no quick fix, this is not just rhetoric or declaration. This is an operational state and we needed communities to band together to make this a reality."

Although they are seemingly on different sides of the fence, the two men do agree when it comes to certain steps, such as spay and neuter programs, feral cat programs, and more aggressive marketing of adoptable pets, which can be effective in reducing euthanasia rates.

Furthermore, while Markarian may not agree with the finger pointing in Winograd's book, he appreciates the conversation it's stirring. "I think people in the no-kill movement have raised important questions and caused a lot of re-examination of animal sheltering, stimulated some innovation,” he says.

“And it's a goal every shelter strives to reach.”

To read more about the Humane Society of the United States' stance on no-kill sheltering, check out two blog entries from the organization's CEO at hsus.org.

Tell us what you think about “Shelters Respond to Winograd Criticism” below, and be sure to watch this video at the top right of your page. Share your favorite videos by clicking on the ZootooTV tab. Send us your story ideas by e-mailing us at news@zootoo.com or by calling us at 877-777-4204.



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ChicoianVolenteer
ChicoianVolenteer
13 hours ago
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Well, he comes off as undereducated on the issue. Becoming a no-kill is something all shelters strive to do, but until they get enough funds, that isn't possible.
 
sheltervt
sheltervt
2 days ago
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Winograd makes the common mistake of the ill-informed and poorly educated... he tries to apply his own limited experience to the world at large. Congrats to Winograd for his success. No-kill is admirable. But it simply is NOT a feasible global reality until the population-at-large is educated in the realities of animal care, reproduction, and overpopulation. As long as the average American considers their pets as nothing more than property, posessions to be bought, sold, traded, or completely ignored, breeding will be rampant, overpopulation will be at a crisis point, and pets will be euthanized in droves.
 
Barbara T.
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I absolutely agree that a goal of no-kill is appropriate, but the current reality of the situation is that it is not an instantly met goal.

In my community, there is no pet store, no pool of willing adoptive owners, no money, and no physical space to house all the animals brought to the shelter. We do as much marketing of the pets as possible and recruit as many foster homes as possible, but we just cannot attain no-kill status at this time.
 
Sydney  S.
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I think that a no kill shelter is possible. Everyone just needs to come together to help.
 
Brian D.
Brian D. (briannikki)
2 months ago
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What a wonderful world it would be if we did not need the shelters anymore but this is not a perfect world and there are going to be people who don't give a damn. For the people who care all we could do is do the best we can to help the best we know how.
 
WANSTREET
WANSTREET
4 months ago
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A no kill society would be great. It will not happen until laws are made to get rid of puppy mills and mandatory spay/neuter, and enforced. Too many people conveniently get rid of their pets and the economy right now is not helping at all.
 
Jessica F.
Jessica F. (frosty73)
3 months ago
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Surprisingly, the author points out that the laws are NOT helping the situation with homeless pets. He has some unique ideas-- I highly recommend reading his book, if you don't want to purchase it you can request it at the library.
 
Gene M.
Gene M. (lablover60)
4 months ago
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What a wonderful world, but the truth is shelters are over run with dogs and cats. An effective spay/neuter program with a change in values in society would be wonderful. Pets are readily available and easily diumped at shelters, I have a few at my house that got old, or the owner died, the family took the Buick and left the dog.
 
terrae01
terrae01
4 months ago
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I really wish that we could be a no-kill society. It would be the ideal. The ideal would also be that every pet owner spays and neuters their animals and takes responsibility for their animals and cares for them properly. I just don't think there are enough resources for all the animals that need homes. It makes me sad!
 
Jessica F.
Jessica F. (frosty73)
3 months ago
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Winograd points out that in every shelter he's ever been in, there are empty cages which COULD be used to house dogs and cats. Some shelters kill pets in the morning, to make room for animals that could POSSIBLY come in that day. Wouldn't it make more sense to not kill animals until every effort is exhausted to save the animals? Why do so many shelters refuse to allow rescuers to come in and take their animals?
 
lori h.
lori h. (LORIG)
4 months ago
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OH WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD IT WOULD BE IF NO ANIMALS WERE PUT TO SLEEP. BUT THERE ARE SO MANY VERY SICK AND ABUSED ANIMALS OUT THERE THAT ARE NOT OR WILL EVER BE ADOPTED. WETHER IT IS DUE TO AGRESSION OR POOR HEALTH. IT SAD BUT TRUE. I TOO WISH ALL SHELTERS WERE NO KILL BUT THEN WHAT HAPPENS TO THE UNWANTED AND ABUSED WHEN NO ONE WANTS THEM. IT MAKE ME CRY TO THINK OF ANIMALS BEING SO MISTREATED BY HEARTLESS PEOPLE JUST TO BE NO ADOPTABLE.
 
Irineyuma
Irineyuma
4 months ago
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When people,shelters together will fix population of the cats,dogs,animals,
then number of all cats,dogs,animals will be not big and every shelter then will find place,food,medicin to every unwanted cat,dog and to every cat,dog,animal with problems of the health.
And people can and adopt cats,dogs which were injried or were receive trauma after help of the veterinary.
 
Irineyuma
Irineyuma
4 months ago
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Everybody- and all people and all cats,dogs,animals want to live.
And life is better then death.
If to use in all shelters only spay/neuter programs,vactinations of the cats,dogs ( feral cats too) and after give to this cats,dogs which are unwanted or have not place in the shelters freedom,put outside- until day when shelters will have all and place enough to all cats,dogs,animals.
Very soon number of the all cats,dogs will be very small.
Becouse shelters,all people will put all energy to make population of the cats,dogs more small but not to kill them-near 4 millions in the year.
How many cats,dogs from this 4 millions are health or can to be health if to help?
And all veterinaries need to help to sterilisate cats,dogs in the shelters everywhere
with big discounts,volontiring.
Becouse every person need to be human.
 
ruthie
ruthie (ruthiegirl66)
4 months ago
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Ok, ok, Jess, you've convinced me, if I can get his book without paying I will give it a read. There is always two sides to every story so I'm willing to see his point of view. My opinion is still the same about pet stores not selling and only breeders with certification should breed, let people get their pets from them or shelters. But i still think there will be people out there that just will not spay/neuter and OVERpopulation will still be a problem for a long time to come.

If people would check into it there are often a lot of full blooded breeds in shelters everywhere. Of course they may not have a pedigree but if people are looking for a specific kind of pet they can still find it at a shelter.

At least this has gotten us to think about what MORE we can do about this worldwide
dilemma. I can't understand how there would be a shortage of animals anywhere when they are capable of reproducing several puppies or kittens at a time and sometimes twice a year.

Even with PWPs progress in reducing euthanasia there are still times when animals have to be put down. It is an awful thing and NO ONE wants to do it. It is always the last measure when all other avenues have been exhausted, fosters, special groups, breed specific rescues, adoption but when you have all kennels full and theres nothing and nowhere else to turn someone has to make that choice.

If zootoo has misinformed us about Winograd I for one am disappointed because we need correct information especially to keep people from personally attacking someone who may or may not be innocent, whatever the case may be.
 
Jessica F.
Jessica F. (frosty73)
4 months ago
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I hope people will take the time to find a copy of Winograd's book (you can check it out from the library so it doesn't cost money!)

The point the author makes about killing is that it isn't "the public" that kills unwanted pets... it is the shelters. Who is responsible for killing? He says that blaming The Public only further distances them from being involved with shelters. Some groups insist on killing feral cats under the belief that death is better than living in an uncertain world where the ferals could possibly get hurt, injured, or starve. Is death better than living? Many people seem to think so for unwanted pets. Instead of really making the effort to find them a suitable home they euthanize them.

The author points out, in some parts of the country, dog shelters are IMPORTING dogs from other areas, even from other countries. They don't have enough dogs to supply the demand. If shelters would work on building a nationwide network and be willing to adopt animals out of their area, imagine what would happen!

Winograd has some very startling facts in his book, backed up by references. I didn't believe everything I read but I still found it extremely enlightening.
 
lori h.
lori h. (LORIG)
4 months ago
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IT IS NOT THE SHELTERS THAT CHOOSE TO KILL. THEY ARE COUNTY RAN. THE PEOPLE THAT WORK IN THESE FACILITIES ARE KIND HEARTED AND LOVING. THEY ONLY DO WHAT THEY ARE DIRECTED TO DO. MY DAUGHTER WORKS AT AN S.P.C.A. IN FLORIDA. A NO KILL FACILITY. THEY STILL HAVE ANIMALS THAT HAVE TO BE PUT DOWN DUE TO BAD HEALTH OR THEY HAVE BEEN ABUSED TO THE POINT THAT THEY ARE NO LONGER PEOPLE FRIENDLY. WOULD YOU ADOPT AN ANGRY AGRESSIVE DOG? I DONT BELIEVE SO.
 
Michele
Michele (MicheleZ)
4 months ago
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Could you give an example of something you read in his book but did NOT believe?

I see your point about reading the book before judging it, but zootooers are commenting on the zootoo version (which, according to you, is "slanted"). It is usually true that having the complete story yields a more accurate view of what is going on or, in this case, what the author is trying to say and do about the situation, but we rarely (if ever) get the complete story in these zootoo news clips.



 
Jessica F.
Jessica F. (frosty73)
4 months ago
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Michele,
I'm thinking back to when I read the book. Generally, Winograd says things like "this group says this about feral cats..." and has a reference for it, so you know it is fact and you can look up where they did say feral cats should be killed rather than TNR.

The part I didn't believe: at one point I remember him using FACTS and then making suppositions such as "Clearly, this group is XYZ". I wish I could be more clear but I don't have the book in front of me, I'll have to check it out from the library again.

As I said before, read it and keep an open mind, but be a critical reader as well.
 
jerZgirl
jerZgirl
4 months ago
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I know on the re-airing of Oprah's "puppy mill" show-it changed a LOT of people's minds. And the pet store in one of the malls is closed down-hopefully permantantley!

While a no-kill country is what we all want-it is VERY hard in happening. There are too many factors at stake. Chaning people's attitudes towards their own animals will be the first and hardest step.
 
lorie h.
lorie h. (STARS)
4 months ago
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I am impressed with the decrease of animals killed from the 1970's til now- You would think that with the high population and the love of animals that the number could become zero. I work as a volunteer for a no kill shelter and I love the work but sometimes I think the rescuer gets attached to the pet and will not let them go to the new family. Or the animal will not get shown for adoptions because of its breeds myths and then the animal becomes a forever foster not giving room for other possible rescues. This article is very educational thank you!
 
Jessica H.
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I am all for no-kill animal shelters. I think it is incredibly sad when animals have to be put to sleep. However, I do not put all the blame on the shelters. We all should help solve the problem; spay/neuter our pets, stop breeding animals, adopt our pets from shelters, donate supplies like food to local shelters, etc.
 
Sarah B.
Sarah B. (sbutler1976)
4 months ago
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This is a good article that raises good points on both sides. No kill shelters would be awesome & all shelters should work towards that goal. I understand & agree w/ Michael Markarian when he says " there is no quick fix." The fact that he gives that in the 1970's the amount euthinized was 15 million & today its about 4 million says that shelters are pushing forward. I think shelters have come along ways but also have a long ways to go yet. With more people aware of whats going on w/ shelters & unwanted pets, Zootooers like us & people that are seeing articles on the news etc. The articles about Winograd's book are raising conversations & stirring up comments. I havn't read the book yet. I would like to hear from anyone that has read it & hear their opinions on it.
 
Jessica F.
Jessica F. (frosty73)
4 months ago
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I've read the book-- Betty, you can request it from a local library (even if they don't have a copy they can get it for you!) It was a real eye-opener, some of it difficult to believe. Even if you don't believe everything in the book, there's enough good information to get you thinking differently and questioning "how can we change this to make it better?"
 
betty p.
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The only way I will read this book is if it is given to me or I find it in a Dollar Store and will pay a dollar for it. But I refuse to purchase it at full price. Sorry. But I will not give my money to this man who blames shelters for putting down animals when it is the public that causes the problems.
 
kittypassion
kittypassion
4 months ago
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I'm for every shelter being a no-kill shelter. Stop the breeding. Stop pet stores except for supplies. Require spay/neuter--even exotics and "purebreds" until there are no longer kill shelters.
 
Jessica F.
Jessica F. (frosty73)
4 months ago
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If nobody is breeding pets, or allowed to breed pets, where will we get our pets from? The black market? Other countries? Or would you like to suggest that nobody be allowed to have pets at all (after they are no longer being bred)?
 
www.RePets.biz I opened a pet store! Its a recycled pet store. ALL ANIMALS ARE FROM SHELTERS ONLY and the money is donated back to our local shelter. Other pets store are welcome to steal my idea!!!!
 
Irineyuma
Irineyuma
4 months ago
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Thank you Tracy.So pet store with animals only from shelters so need now.
And how would be wonderful if more pet stores would take animals only from shelters.
 
Irineyuma
Irineyuma
4 months ago
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I totally agree with kittypassion.
 
ruthie
ruthie (ruthiegirl66)
4 months ago
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First I think pet stores should just stick with pet products, they should not sell pets. They can rake in the bucks by selling all the cat food, kennels, cute doggy sweaters, etc. but leave pets to shelters and reputable, certified breeders.

Second I think Betty is right, there are so many people out there that don't "believe" in spay/neuter it isn't even funny. I made that mistake my self and had our bassset bred and will never do that again, with any dog, and would never reccomend it either.
There need to be more laws and they need to target more responsible pet ownership.
Especially spay/neuter. Its like getting a speeding ticket, it slows you down a bit after you get one because it makes you think before you act. If there were fines for breeding dogs without a certification maybe just maybe it would make some people think before they do something like this. At this point there has to be something we can do to try and reduce the number of animals coming into shelters that just have no where to go.
 
Irineyuma
Irineyuma
4 months ago
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Pet stores can and need to help to find home to the cats,dogs only from shelters.
How Petsmart help to adopt cats,dogs from the shelters.
And their prises( from 25$ until 185$ in diferent cities) are more more litle then money which shelters were put in this animals before- when were make to them tests,diferent vacinations in the shelters before store,this animals were sterilisate and another.
And when people adopt cat or dog from the shelter or Petsmart this people and receive papers with all this information about this cat or dog.
And it is very good and to the people and to the cats,dogs.
 
jerZgirl
jerZgirl
4 months ago
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First of all, I am a firm believer that NOT EVERY DOG SHOULD BE BRED...

Now:

I'm going to say this first - owning an intact male dog is not a crime! LOL Intact males are just as trainable as "fixed" males. Intact males don't go into season or get pyometras, and just like any dog-if trained properly they won't roam. I have one neutered and one intact male in my house and my neutered male will try and breed my female, marks trees, and thinks he still has those things dangling beneath his legs. Didn't make a lick of difference. I had him neutered becasue he was not up to my standards of breeding and didn't want any accidental litters by him. He thinks he won by getting to hang with my female all the time.

My intact male is sweeter than my neutered boy, doesn't mark in the house (none of my dogs do-its not allowed), doesn;t hump legs and certaintly doesn't escape from the yard to breed to everything. He isn't up to my standards of breeding either-but he will get to keep his jewels while I show him and do other dogsports. And he needs the hormones to mature.

Owning an intact bitch is a whole other can o worms. It is a HUGE responsibility. You know that your female is at risk for the mammary tumors, pyometras, and the like. You know about "silent heats" and they have an increased risk of vaginal and urinary tract infections. But, my female will be intact. She is one of the best specimens around with a smashing pedigree. She is a great working dog anda therapy dog and I hope will produce nicely for me. I know the risks.

So to fine or ticket people that have intact males? No. But people wanting to breed Foofie should at least have to take a breed quiz-know the standard, get a title on the dog or get Foofie spayed.
 
kit10s
kit10s
4 months ago
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I totally agree with you, pets should not be sold in stores and there should be stringent guidelines for breeders.
The large chain pet stores in our area, PetSmart, Pet Supermarket, etc, actually have rescue groups and shelters bring in their animals for adoptions. If more stores would do this it would go a long way to help solving the problem of so-called pet overpopulation.
 
Sarah M.
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I think we need to do a better job of educating people that buying the cute puppy in the store is a 15 year commitment to another living creature.
 
We need to educate the pet store owners about puppy mills, and the problems they are creating for shelters! How about a pet store/breeder fee that they have to pay at least 10% of their local shelters expences per month since they are part of the problem
 
Kathleen
Kathleen (mewlkitten)
4 months ago
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my pets are my family and I'd never give them up for anything.
 
betty p.
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Some folks still view animals as property. Therefore, when you are tired of it, get rid of it. Old and worn out, get rid of it. Cost too much to take care of it, get rid of it. Not what you wanted to start with, get rid of it. Does not match the carpet, get rid of it.

These are excuses that most shelters hear about every week. So then the shelter have to deal with it whether we want to or not. And if the shelter turns it away, they will either take it to another shelter who will take it in whether they have room or not or they will dump it which means that shelter will get it any way.

We have folks who don't spay/neuter their pets. Why would they not. Want them to have one litter. Want one of their babies. It will change their personality. It will make them fat. It is the animal's right to have litters or they would not have been made that way.

The shelters can educate the public all we want, but there are going to be some who "just don't get it". They don't want to be told they are causing a problem. They don't want to hear about it. After all, they can get rid of the problem with ease.

So we need stricter laws. We need mandated spay/neuter. We need stricter laws for folks who are going to breed. Those animals need to be award winning certified show animals. And then limit the number they can produce a year. We need stricter laws for animals period.

And the shelters can ask and lobby for them, but that does not mean govenment will listen. The shelters can ask and lobby for more funds from govenment, but that does not mean government will listen.

So I am not sure how Winograd believes it is the fault of shelters when we put down animals. There is not one person who likes putting down animals. From the person who makes the decision on who gets to put down, to the person who does the deed. Nobody likes that.

It is a fact that shelters just don't have the space to hold every single animal that comes in the door. And to turn it away means it will go some where else or be dumped. Neither of which is usually a good thing.

I personally will not purchase Winograd's book. He will never receive any funds from me as I would rather take and donate my money to the shelter.
 
Jessica F.
Jessica F. (frosty73)
4 months ago
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Betty,
You are a very ardent and well-spoken animal lover, I hope you will take the time to find out what Winograd REALLY has to say. He operated the San Francisco SPCA and very successfully made huge amounts of progress-- all of which is documented, factual truths. Don't accept the slant of this news article without finding out the truth for yourself. You can check out the book from the library and still donate money to your local animal shelter!
 
Irineyuma
Irineyuma
4 months ago
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I am very suprise.
Why some people can to be so cruel and stuped with the pets.
Their hearts from the stone?
Life on the land is so short of the everybody. And more early or more later everybody will pay for all bad what he,she was make and pay very much.
It is very easy to see in the fates of the people around.
And if you is cruel person and do not understand laws of the life,Nature and people,but need to be afraid for yourself a little.
Often so cruel people understand but lately.
And often life,fate,Nature do not exuse cruel things to this people.
 
WickedPineapple
WickedPineapple
4 months ago
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I agree, stricter laws would help. Massive fines would DEFINITELY help. I know a guy who gave up a dog because he joined a frat. Why would you freakin' get a dog if you thought you'd be living in a frat?? It's really sad, it shouldn't be like this.
 
Cheryl
Cheryl (cherries33)
4 months ago
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My favorite excuse is "we're moving".... you can move the couch, the t.v., the bed the refrigerator and tons of clothes you'll never fit into again, but a 10 lb. cat? Or a 25 lb. dog? Oh No!!! Way too inconvenient.

I love your ideas for laws. It would be great if we see the day when owning a pet is a privilege that you need to be worthy of instead of having animals treated like $2 throw away trinkets from Sam's.
 
betty p.
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Cheryl H, I like that whole "privilege" thing. Would that not be wonderful because then you know for a fact those animals will be loved and wanted.

And as for moving, I am sick of that one. I love it when folks come in saying "we are moving and can't take it". I always ask why not. I grill them to find out why. Most of the time you are right, don't want to deal with it.
 
jerZgirl
jerZgirl
4 months ago
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People's attitudes need to change to viewing that dog or cat as a lifelong committment. There are many many areas of the US where residents still let their dogs roam "becasue they're in the country" or dump their dogs "in the country" thinking it will solve their problems. Folks still peddle puppies and kittens outside Wal-Marts for pete's sake. Can't tell you how many times I've seen guys selling ill-bred pit bulls our of their pickup trucks.

This is not Mayberry anymore and people need to be RESPONSIBLE. In a household with children that goes through pets like underwear, what message does that send the kids? Not a good one!

The only way for ALL shelters to be "no-kill" is to get government funding. Tiny counties can't operate on their funds alone. But hey, here's a novel idea-instead of having the governemnt subsidise the Amish for running puppy mills, use that money to help out the underpriveledged animal shelters.
 
WickedPineapple
WickedPineapple
4 months ago
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I've found some of the opinions on this subject show just how naive people can be about shelters and what they are capable of. I knew next to nothing about shelters until my best friend went to work for one. I would hang out with her after she got off work and have to listen to how one person brought in over a dozen cats, how people who can't afford to feed their dog want free food, and how people won't get their dog fixed because they "deserve to have their balls". I adopted two cats from this shelter, it is not no-kill. If it was no-kill, what do you think would happen when those people who want to get rid of these animals get turned away? You think that every shelter can be no-kill? People are irresponsible, and until they are we will have to euthanize animals.

I will definitely NOT be supporting this a**hole who whines but does nothing about it. How about he be more constructive and write about how people can help.
 
Jessica F.
Jessica F. (frosty73)
4 months ago
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Your last comment is interesting since you haven't read the book yet. I got it from the library-- didn't cost me a cent-- and I learned a lot. The slant of this "news" article is that the author blames shelters, but he also has some pretty amazing ideas for creating a no-kill solution. Which, by the way, worked while he was in charge of one of the country's largest animal controls. How did they do it? Read the book.
 
WickedPineapple
WickedPineapple
4 months ago
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You're absolutely right. Honestly I was just kinda pissed off in response to what people have been saying they only "believe in no-kill shelters" as if their are no problems with those shelters as well. However, I still would not pay for a book that claims pet overpopulation is a myth when I have seen it firsthand. I may do as you did, since I am an avid reader.
 
Lauren  S.
Lauren S. (LaurenS)
4 months ago
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I don't understand this Winograd guy. . . . how can he not understand simple facts? simple math? There are between 3 and 4 million dogs and cats euthanized yearly because there are NO HOMES for them.... there are simply more animals that need homes than there are goog, responsible homes out there. So, if every shelter in my region (southwest pa) went no-kill, what would happen to the many thousands of unwanted animals turned away from no kill shelters due to lack of space? They would either be killed by animal control, left to starve on the streets, euthanized by owners, or taken to an open door shelter somewhere else.
I volunteer at a no-kill shelter, and I love it. But I know that a few "no kill" shelters don't solve the problem. Man, this dude makes me nuts!
 
Jessica F.
Jessica F. (frosty73)
4 months ago
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Lauren,
Read his book before making derogatory comments. I think you'll find