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Carriage Ban Debated at NY City Hall Meeting

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It's been around since the 1940s, but tradition aside, horse carriages in New York City now have to go, one Councilman is saying. Tony Avella introduced the ban on the practice Friday at City Hall, where parties from both sides gave public testimonies.

NEW YORK -- A horse carriage ride through Central Park has been a classic tourist excursion since the 1940s, but a group of New Yorkers, led by Queens Councilman Tony Avella, are now saying "neigh" to the practice, which they cite as inhumane.

Avella introduced a ban on the practice on Friday afternoon at City Hall, where he and hundreds of people issued public testimonies against horse carriages.

It wasn't all laughs and a bale of hay, though -- several representatives of the approximate 285 carriage drivers also turned out, crying the potential loss of jobs this ban could prompt. They also said that the animals are treated fairly.

"You know what it is to have a job and not be able to pay your mortgage?" asked Kevin Brudie, a member of the union Teamsters Local 553, to the hundreds of people holding up signs of mutilated horses and the word "BAN!" on the steps of City Hall.

"You know what it is to have to walk through New York City midtown traffic for nine hours at a time, dodging cars and fumes?" one protester yelled back.

Inside City Hall, the ambiance retained a comparable intensity; Avella and other councilmen questioned representatives of the NYC Department of Health and NYC & Company, a marketing and tourism agency, hoping to assess the potential financial loss the city would face if the ban goes through.

Avella and the Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages say any monetary ramifications could not compete with the pressing issue of animal cruelty.

"This issue has to be put out to pasture," Avella said. "We believe we have grown enough in society to recognize cruelty to animals is no longer appropriate. This is an industry that makes its living on the backs of these animals."

The horses, which are all privately owned, are allowed to work eight to nine hours, seven days a week. They only must be brought into their stables if the temperature exceeds 90 degrees Fahrenheit, or dips below 19.

Three carriage horses perished in various accidents in 2006 and 2007, but the thought of a ban has been around since the 1970s, long before the deaths made headlines in New York City newspapers and television stations.

"This has been going on for years, but we couldn't get any politician to support it and introduce a bill until Tony Avella came along," said Christine MacMurray, vice president of the Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages. "We lose horses every year -- they die in the streets or are put down anyway."

Avella's measure, Intro 658, stands in opposition to Intro 653-A, which would raise horse carriage fares and amend regulations on the commercial industry, which draws in 550,000 to 700,000 tourists a year, according to NYC & Co.

Representatives from the company say the ban could cause the city's tourism industry to take a hit; Avella argues tourists don't just come to New York for a carriage ride, anyway.

Avella's ban would include provisions that provide for the drivers, granting them re-training opportunities in different professions. Teamsters Local 553, however, says that is not enough, and that this is "an issue of fairness," said Executive Officer Demos Demopoulos.

"This is about doing what is right for the working people, especially in this economy. The industry has not had a fare increase for over 20 years," he said.

Currently, carriage drivers are permitted to charge $10 for every 15 minutes; that fare is often manipulated, though, said Avella, citing higher prices listed on various Web sites.

"They are scamming New Yorkers left and right," he told Pet Pulse News.

Despite his qualm with the loose fare system, Avella said the issue here "is not really about the drivers. It's about the horses and their safety."

The ASPCA is partially responsible for monitoring the working animals' well-being. In 2008, the ASPCA conducted 54 separate inspections, according to Stephen Zawistowski, the organization's executive vice president and science advisor.

The majority of the horses were found in good health, but four have been sequestered to their stalls after the ASPCA deemed them too weak or sick to work. Inspectors also took issue with lighting conditions and the stables' placement on a second floor, which could make it difficult to fully evacuate all the animals during a fire.

"We have seen consistent difficulties and have catalogued problems," Zawistowski said. Despite the drivers' willingness to accept the ASPCA's recommendations along the way, the practice's inherent nature still presents problems, Zawistowski said.

"The law is still limited," he explained. "These horses will still be working on the streets, presented with the dangers of traffic, fumes and needing to go in and out of traffic. It's not the romantic image that is given."

One councilman then questioned Zawistowski, saying that all New Yorkers have to contend with a similar set of issues on a daily basis.

"New Yorkers make that choice for themselves," Zawitowski pointed out. "And they are not forced to do it for nine hours a day."

This cold winter, in particular, has been rough on the working horses, the ASPCA and the Humane Society of the United States say. In late December, the horses were kept out as a snow storm blew through Manhattan.

"I'm sure we all remember the first blistering ice storm on December 19, when the horses were forced to work that day," HSUS New York State Director Patrick Kwan said. "Despite it being bitter cold and icy, with slippery conditions, the horses were kept out."

The ASPCA eventually forced the drivers to bring the horses back into their stalls.

One driver named "Brenden," however, previously told Pet Pulse News that the drivers do not generally push the horses to work in harsh conditions.

"It's a-100 percent conformity on that law -- probably the only law in New York City that people conform to," said "Brenden" in an interview last summer. "Like last week, we got a four day block where it exceeded 90 degrees Fahrenheit, so we didn't even bother coming to work."

Demopolous maintained in the testimony that the drivers care for their animals properly and "know what they are doing." The horses, he says, are simply not abused.

Pet Pulse did not hear testimony from any of the drivers, who were represented by the teamster union. In previous interviews with Pet Pulse News, one driver said that he never works his horse "Colin" more than six hours a day.

"He works a five day week, Monday through Friday," said the driver, who only gave his first name, "Colin." "It's pretty easy, not very strenuous at all."

The NYC Department of Health backed the drivers during the testimony and opposed Avella's bill. It works alongside the ASPCA in conducting inspections and "monitoring the use of carriages to ensure a safe operation," according to Edgar Butts, the assistant commissioner of veterinary and pest control services.

The Department of Health has not cited any issues of health or safety that could support the ban, Butts said, noting that no working horses are younger than five, or older than 20 years.

There is no need, Butts said, to "destroy part of the ambiance of the city."

"We don't want to take away features that make New York more attractive when there is no need to," he said.

Avella has not set an exact time frame for passing the bill, explaining to Pet Pulse, "I really had to push for this hearing. Let's just see how it goes."

He has received some support from other members of the NYC council, but says that Mayor Mike Bloomberg's opposition to the ban has left people weary.

Avella believes, though, that as the ban receives additional media attention, more New Yorkers and tourists alike will support the cause. He recommends people talk to their councilmen and women about the ban.

"The average New Yorker who understands this issue will say, it is time for this industry to go," he said.

If the ban passes, New York City would join the ranks of London, Toronto, Paris and Beijing, which have all banned the practice.

Tell us what you think about “Carriage Ban Debated at NY City Hall Meeting” below. Share your favorite videos by clicking on the ZootooTV tab. Send us your story ideas by e-mailing us at news@zootoo.com or by calling us at 877-777-4204.



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Bridget L.
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I have to believe that the majority of the carriage horse owners and drivers have their animal's health at the top of their priority list. It does not benefit the owner nor the driver to have an overworked horse in poor condition. I don't know that a ban is the answer - just good oversight I would think is enough.
 
kodeneal
kodeneal
8 months ago
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What an interesting subject.. Makes you think, huh?
 
Carissa E.
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I always wonder about the treatment of horse carraige ride horses. There are lots in Austin with no controversy.
 
Pam H.
Pam H. (living4fun)
8 months ago
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At the very least the horses shouldn't be in the same area as regular traffic. I feel the temperature guidelines are not good enough. It is funny(not so much) they have a union for the drivers but nobody is directly incharge of making sure the horses are treated fairly and watching the conditions in which they are made to work in. After all without the horses the drivers wouldn't make a dime!
 
jeaniehays
jeaniehays
8 months ago
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wow
 
brenda g.
brenda g. (kitamom)
8 months ago
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I can only see the rides continuing in areas where there is NO MOTORIZED traffic allowed. Horses were not meant to be competing or subjected to work with traffic.
 
nodmblnd
nodmblnd
8 months ago
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I think carriage rides should most definitely be banned. It is bad enough that they are weaving in out of congested traffic , breathing exhaust fumes. I visited NYC in June of 2009, during one of the hottest heat waves of the summer. I was appalled that horses were still out on the street in the humid 100 degree weather. On a stiflingly hot friday night in Times Square, I saw a carriage horse waiting at the curb for customers; it's head was hanging low ;it was an upsetting sight. I asked the owner if I could pet the animal, but when I asked if the horse should be out in the heat, the guy started yelling at me, saying " there are laws, and the horses are brought in when it is too hot ! " Well, it was all over the tv that the temperture had hit 100, so what is the limit for these poor animals ?? I say do what is necessary to ban horse drawn carriages permanently. It is clearly animal abuse.
 
DeeGee33
DeeGee33
8 months ago
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I think that they should be banned in all cities. It just isn't somethingI like to see the horses being forced to do. I personally don't like to see the pony rides at fairs and birthday parties either.
 
Andrea S.
Andrea S. (ajswanny)
8 months ago
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Especially in the city, thats just crazy!
 
Rae
Rae (Rae09)
8 months ago
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I agree with you!
 
Annie H.
Annie H. (AnnieHudson)
8 months ago
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I live in NYC and I am always appalled whenever I see these poor horses out there. First of all the smell is horrific. Not just the exhaust fumes. The trash, the urine and feces... One time I actually saw a horse eating the overflowing trashcan on the corner where he was standing. There are just way too many of them out there. If not a complete ban, there should definitely be stricter regulations.
 
caseymywasey
caseymywasey
8 months ago
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well, a carriage ride sounds very lovely and romantic, but not if the poor horses are being overworked and mistreated. I think that it should be made obsolete if that is the case. I feel sorry for the people who would lose their jobs, but it should not carry on if it is a danger to animals.
 
Marla W.
Marla W. (marlawo)
8 months ago
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They just need to go further out away from all the noise and traffic. I would like it in the county. This is to dangerous to the horses.
 
Sarah C.
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could never bring myself to ride in one of these carriages....just doesn't seem that the streets of NYC as they are today are the right environment for them.
 
Renee W.
Renee W. (jerseybear)
9 months ago
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i feel this issue is in the news for the wrong reasons.. it should be more focused on the better treatment of these horses not the issue of weather they are an obstruction and or the prices... we hear every day that prices and the economy are bad.. Heck Look at Gasoline prices. Why cause more people to lose there jobs because one man thinks the horses are so to say an eye sore. this is just one more issue that the world doesn't need to be dealing with right now.
 
Larry N.
Larry N. (LarryNeaves)
9 months ago
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This is a mixed problem. I would like to see the carriage horse business eliminated, but I fear what would happen to the horses. We have a Belgian who was a carriage horse. Good treatment is subjective. By our standards he was not treated well, but we do not like the practice of an horse being stabled most of the time and having a turnout in a small area for a few hours a day. We are convinced that many of the medical problems such as being insulin resistant could be reduced if horses were out in a pasture moving all day. Yes, we know that is not possible for most people, but that does not mean it would not be desirable.
 
cjm2008
cjm2008
9 months ago
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<span>this comment has been removed from the system</span>
 
tnsn
tnsn
9 months ago
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i agree
 
Kathy
Kathy (TheInnocent)
9 months ago
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The ban should stand, with more and more cars in metro New York, the air quaility is horrid, horses need fresh air, not carbon monozide, 7 days a week, try standing on your feet for 8 hrs a day......retire the horses, its time.
 
Evelync
Evelync
9 months ago
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I agree they should ban it,times have changed,it is more dangerous for them to be doing this
 
Elizabeth D.
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I think regulating length of days and how much they work would be a good idea rather thatn banning it. when i was a kid we had a pair of retired work horses although they didn't pull carriages they throughly enjoyed pulling stuff around. i don't think it is truly inhumane if they are treated well.
 
Elizabeth W.
Elizabeth W. (Liz004)
9 months ago
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I really hope the ban is passed. When I watch Animal Cops the horses are monitored but you know in order to make a buck they smudge their paperwork. Plus the horses look so sad, they are forced to lug people around all day in polluted air.
 
Nicole
Nicole (Nicole054)
9 months ago
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I hope the ban gets passed. It's about time!
 
Bobby D.
Bobby D. (dallisbo)
9 months ago
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I wish they would update this to see the result.
 
dogsrsuper
dogsrsuper
9 months ago
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I wish this ban would be put in place. As a kid, I always wanted a carriage ride, but not anymore. I'd rather pay the driver to sit idle and give the horse a break. I watch Animal Cops and I knew the drivers were monitored, but I didn't know the horses were allowed to work 8 hrs, 7 days a week!
 
Iza D.
Iza D. (izka)
9 months ago
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Those horses always look so sad and tired. Breathing those fumes and working such long hours isn't the way a horse's life is suppossed to be. I'm sorry for the drivers who will lose their jobs, but if they had treated their horses better to begin with this would not be an issue.
 
Norrie
Norrie (norrie43)
9 months ago
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I'd alway thought it would be fun to take a carriage ride but also wondered about the horses walking on paved streets for such long hours & breathing in the fumes from the traffic. Sorry people will be losing their jobs but need to agree on the horses ending the ride business.
 
cherrylee
cherrylee
9 months ago
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Another tradition that needs to go. Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages has information - www.banhdc.org I signed their petition, and I hope that on my next visit to NYC, the streets will be crowded only with motor vehicles.
 
Elizabeth  M.
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I wonder how this banis progressing. Anyone know?
 
Amanda S.
Amanda S. (aomanda)
9 months ago
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I've heard a lot about this. It will be interesting to see what happens next.
 
kathy
kathy (aaaaaaaaaaaaa)
9 months ago
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I have seen the horse's in NYC and New Orleans and if you look at their faces they look so sad :-(
 
Michelle  J.
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I have been on those carriage rides and while they are fun I think their should be better regulations. Maybe not so many hours and if they want to work 8 or 9 hours a day they should have to trade out horses every few hours. The horses I saw seemed to be treated well and all were in good weight and were given food and water breaks after every trip.
 
Leah G.
Leah G. (spunkins2000)
9 months ago
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It sounds like maybe they need better regulation and monitoring of the horses, so they aren't out in terrible weather or working long shifts. I don't see why it has to be banned though. Are they going to ban police horses next??
 
Brigitte B.
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Give the horses a break!
 
Sue L.
Sue L. (slrczk)
9 months ago
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I think the carriages are nice as long as the horses are treated well.
 
Diane H.
Diane H. (catsecrets)
9 months ago
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This is one of those things that look so nice & innocent at first hand - like puppies in a store window. But then you look behind the scenes and it gets ugly. It's not romantic to have a horse that stands for hours in cold & rain or intense heat and smog. Let's just end it.
 
adele n.
adele n. (anoel78753)
9 months ago
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right on
 
wpdebbie
wpdebbie
9 months ago
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This subject has been debated in NYC for about 20 years. I've seen these poor animals pulling carriages, plodding along while the traffice whizzes by, breathing the fumes. Out there in the heat and cold. Why anyone would want to ride a carriage through traffic is beyond me.
 
Teayl J.
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Whew Hot Topic.
Peoples income....Animals health and lives. Don't know enough truths about this situation. Just because an article says it, doesnot mean it's representative of the truth.
That being said, perhaps the first change should be strict laws and the ability to overlook the situation and enforce the laws.
The anui,als should have standard of care, nutrition, health and restrictions on the number of hours they can work and in what weather conditions.
 
Sylvia  M.
Sylvia M. (SylviaM)
9 months ago
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I agree that the condition of the horses needs to be addressed but to not have carriage ride in New York Central Park would be the loss of a tradition
 
Tina H.
Tina H. (theinricy)
9 months ago
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I agree with everyone. There's nothing that hasn't been said.
 
Stacie R.
Stacie R. (Stac928)
9 months ago
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Most of those horses are taken care of very well and the companies who don't treat their animals well could probably be prosecuted under existing statutes. Instead of banning huge categories of things (breeds, businesses, etc) laws should focus on protecting animals. And law enforcement should be given the money and manpower needed to enforce the laws.
 
Rachel K.
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I think that since the horses are probably getting taken off very well there should be carraiges. Not only is it a benefit to us to go on a peiceful ride with these magnificent creatures...but it gives them something to do. Horses have a huge ton of man power and are great workers, as long as they are not overworked, i think it is great!
 
clarsax
clarsax
9 months ago
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If the animals really are being treated well, maybe they'd be better off focusing their time and money on animal abusers and getting more humane officers out there.
 
Zoe K.
Zoe K. (xhazelharpx)
9 months ago
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Maybe I'm biased, but as a member of PETA and a horse lover, I am all for the ban on carrige rides. Reading this changed my opinion big time-
www.peta.org
 
birdluvr
birdluvr
9 months ago
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I chose not to take a carriage ride on my vacation to New York.
 
adele n.
adele n. (anoel78753)
9 months ago
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i didn't take a ride either. everytime i saw a horse, i thought about the reports of abuse. I walked instead.
 
Kathleen H.
Kathleen H. (Draken)
9 months ago
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If the ASPCA and the Department of Health think the horses are fine then leave the carriage drivers alone. I've seen several of the horses that work in various cities and incidents of abuse are rare. I've got no problem with the carriage industry.

I did think it was interesting that this article mentioned that Zootoo did not talk to any of the drivers. At least you're honest about the article being one sided.
 
Mattbstl30
Mattbstl30
9 months ago
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I think the carriages are great!
 
Ashlyn M.
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This subject tears at my heart, because in this economy, more lost jobs only hurts more, however... these horses shouldn't be put into the situation they are in. I just hope that if this measure does pass, there is a plan in line for the horses left over, and they aren't just dumped.
 
Genevieve O.
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I went on a carriage ride when I was in NY. It was a great way to see the park. The horses were in great shape and the drivers treated them like their own. There are no cars in Central Park. After we were done with the ride the carriage driver gave us carrots to feed the horse. I can see if they were on the main streets. I didn't like walking across the streets with the way they drive there but Central Park is a safe place. I have a lot of allergies but the air was clear in the park.
 
Jrad35
Jrad35
9 months ago
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interesting
 
BethAnn L.
BethAnn L. (NYBA)
9 months ago
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I've seen the carriage horses first hand--while some of them look very well cared for. I think that NYC is no place for a horse to be dealing with traffic or having to inhale all of that exhaust--If people want to see a different view of nyc they can walk or hire one of the guys that has the bike carts to haul them around the city.
 
Cara C.
Cara C. (ccoop11)
9 months ago
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aww... the carriages are beautiful and provide a different view of nyc. i can't believe people want them gone
 
Mary M.
Mary M. (naturesworld)
9 months ago
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I agree they should be banned. Horses are livestock and should not be subjected to city conditions for the sake of greedy peoples pleasure. This article only touches the tip of the iceberg on this subject. I wouldn't want to breath car exhaust for a living.
 
adele n.
adele n. (anoel78753)
9 months ago
Flag this | Good Point | 1 user liked it.
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yep - car exhaust fumes - destroys your lungs
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