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Carriage Ban Debated at NY City Hall Meeting

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It's been around since the 1940s, but tradition aside, horse carriages in New York City now have to go, one Councilman is saying. Tony Avella introduced the ban on the practice Friday at City Hall, where parties from both sides gave public testimonies.

NEW YORK -- A horse carriage ride through Central Park has been a classic tourist excursion since the 1940s, but a group of New Yorkers, led by Queens Councilman Tony Avella, are now saying "neigh" to the practice, which they cite as inhumane.

Avella introduced a ban on the practice on Friday afternoon at City Hall, where he and hundreds of people issued public testimonies against horse carriages.

It wasn't all laughs and a bale of hay, though -- several representatives of the approximate 285 carriage drivers also turned out, crying the potential loss of jobs this ban could prompt. They also said that the animals are treated fairly.

"You know what it is to have a job and not be able to pay your mortgage?" asked Kevin Brudie, a member of the union Teamsters Local 553, to the hundreds of people holding up signs of mutilated horses and the word "BAN!" on the steps of City Hall.

"You know what it is to have to walk through New York City midtown traffic for nine hours at a time, dodging cars and fumes?" one protester yelled back.

Inside City Hall, the ambiance retained a comparable intensity; Avella and other councilmen questioned representatives of the NYC Department of Health and NYC & Company, a marketing and tourism agency, hoping to assess the potential financial loss the city would face if the ban goes through.

Avella and the Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages say any monetary ramifications could not compete with the pressing issue of animal cruelty.

"This issue has to be put out to pasture," Avella said. "We believe we have grown enough in society to recognize cruelty to animals is no longer appropriate. This is an industry that makes its living on the backs of these animals."

The horses, which are all privately owned, are allowed to work eight to nine hours, seven days a week. They only must be brought into their stables if the temperature exceeds 90 degrees Fahrenheit, or dips below 19.

Three carriage horses perished in various accidents in 2006 and 2007, but the thought of a ban has been around since the 1970s, long before the deaths made headlines in New York City newspapers and television stations.

"This has been going on for years, but we couldn't get any politician to support it and introduce a bill until Tony Avella came along," said Christine MacMurray, vice president of the Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages. "We lose horses every year -- they die in the streets or are put down anyway."

Avella's measure, Intro 658, stands in opposition to Intro 653-A, which would raise horse carriage fares and amend regulations on the commercial industry, which draws in 550,000 to 700,000 tourists a year, according to NYC & Co.

Representatives from the company say the ban could cause the city's tourism industry to take a hit; Avella argues tourists don't just come to New York for a carriage ride, anyway.

Avella's ban would include provisions that provide for the drivers, granting them re-training opportunities in different professions. Teamsters Local 553, however, says that is not enough, and that this is "an issue of fairness," said Executive Officer Demos Demopoulos.

"This is about doing what is right for the working people, especially in this economy. The industry has not had a fare increase for over 20 years," he said.

Currently, carriage drivers are permitted to charge $10 for every 15 minutes; that fare is often manipulated, though, said Avella, citing higher prices listed on various Web sites.

"They are scamming New Yorkers left and right," he told Pet Pulse News.

Despite his qualm with the loose fare system, Avella said the issue here "is not really about the drivers. It's about the horses and their safety."

The ASPCA is partially responsible for monitoring the working animals' well-being. In 2008, the ASPCA conducted 54 separate inspections, according to Stephen Zawistowski, the organization's executive vice president and science advisor.

The majority of the horses were found in good health, but four have been sequestered to their stalls after the ASPCA deemed them too weak or sick to work. Inspectors also took issue with lighting conditions and the stables' placement on a second floor, which could make it difficult to fully evacuate all the animals during a fire.

"We have seen consistent difficulties and have catalogued problems," Zawistowski said. Despite the drivers' willingness to accept the ASPCA's recommendations along the way, the practice's inherent nature still presents problems, Zawistowski said.

"The law is still limited," he explained. "These horses will still be working on the streets, presented with the dangers of traffic, fumes and needing to go in and out of traffic. It's not the romantic image that is given."

One councilman then questioned Zawistowski, saying that all New Yorkers have to contend with a similar set of issues on a daily basis.

"New Yorkers make that choice for themselves," Zawitowski pointed out. "And they are not forced to do it for nine hours a day."

This cold winter, in particular, has been rough on the working horses, the ASPCA and the Humane Society of the United States say. In late December, the horses were kept out as a snow storm blew through Manhattan.

"I'm sure we all remember the first blistering ice storm on December 19, when the horses were forced to work that day," HSUS New York State Director Patrick Kwan said. "Despite it being bitter cold and icy, with slippery conditions, the horses were kept out."

The ASPCA eventually forced the drivers to bring the horses back into their stalls.

One driver named "Brenden," however, previously told Pet Pulse News that the drivers do not generally push the horses to work in harsh conditions.

"It's a-100 percent conformity on that law -- probably the only law in New York City that people conform to," said "Brenden" in an interview last summer. "Like last week, we got a four day block where it exceeded 90 degrees Fahrenheit, so we didn't even bother coming to work."

Demopolous maintained in the testimony that the drivers care for their animals properly and "know what they are doing." The horses, he says, are simply not abused.

Pet Pulse did not hear testimony from any of the drivers, who were represented by the teamster union. In previous interviews with Pet Pulse News, one driver said that he never works his horse "Colin" more than six hours a day.

"He works a five day week, Monday through Friday," said the driver, who only gave his first name, "Colin." "It's pretty easy, not very strenuous at all."

The NYC Department of Health backed the drivers during the testimony and opposed Avella's bill. It works alongside the ASPCA in conducting inspections and "monitoring the use of carriages to ensure a safe operation," according to Edgar Butts, the assistant commissioner of veterinary and pest control services.

The Department of Health has not cited any issues of health or safety that could support the ban, Butts said, noting that no working horses are younger than five, or older than 20 years.

There is no need, Butts said, to "destroy part of the ambiance of the city."

"We don't want to take away features that make New York more attractive when there is no need to," he said.

Avella has not set an exact time frame for passing the bill, explaining to Pet Pulse, "I really had to push for this hearing. Let's just see how it goes."

He has received some support from other members of the NYC council, but says that Mayor Mike Bloomberg's opposition to the ban has left people weary.

Avella believes, though, that as the ban receives additional media attention, more New Yorkers and tourists alike will support the cause. He recommends people talk to their councilmen and women about the ban.

"The average New Yorker who understands this issue will say, it is time for this industry to go," he said.

If the ban passes, New York City would join the ranks of London, Toronto, Paris and Beijing, which have all banned the practice.

Tell us what you think about “Carriage Ban Debated at NY City Hall Meeting” below. Share your favorite videos by clicking on the ZootooTV tab. Send us your story ideas by e-mailing us at news@zootoo.com or by calling us at 877-777-4204.



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Julie w.
Julie w. (juliewest81)
8 months ago
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Punish the abusive drivers and make sure the horses are housed in good conditions. Conduct inspections to make sure everyone is in compliance.
 
jeepnferretlover
jeepnferretlover
8 months ago
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I agree Julie.
 
Chester H.
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I hope this gets passed. This is no for any animal to live.
 
Larien E.
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I think only the owners that have been confirmed as cruel owners should be forced to quit working, but horses were meant to pull carriages and what not, they are a working animal. If they are not treated cruely then there shouldnt be a problem with them working.
 
Mary S.
Mary S. (MSue)
8 months ago
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I agree with banning the cruel drivers - not the working horses.
 
vmccullouch
vmccullouch
8 months ago
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I don't see how working is abuse. These horses are how the drivers pay their bills, they aren't going to purposefully risk their animals - they are the meal tickets. Remember that the drivers are not sitting the warmth either, if the horses are outside, so are the drivers.
Is the next ban going to be on Amish drivers who bring their horses up and down main roads where traffic flows at 50-65 mph? They are in much more danger than the horses in slow moving traffic.
 
jim a.
jim a. (adkinj)
8 months ago
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If work is abuse then why isn't all work banned. If there is animal cruelty issues then deal with the cruel driver.
 
ClevelandBrownsfan
ClevelandBrownsfan
8 months ago
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Sounds like a ban would result in improving the life of these animals so I am all for it as long as the alternative is better. Sometimes it take a complete ban to properly deal with the bad apples. This would probably not be happening if the industry was more diligent in self policing. The tourists will live without it.
 
jo f.
jo f. (libradance)
8 months ago
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It sounds like the Driver/Owners are cooperating with the ASPCA in the care and handling of their animals. I agree with some of you....working is not abuse...as long as they are properly cared for.
 
Colleen H.
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It should be banned! Just because it's been around since 1940 and it's 'tradition' doesn't meant that it should be!
 
Linda
Linda (lcolson4)
8 months ago
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I've not ridden in the carriages in New York, but I have in both New Orleans and Charleston. I don't think those horses were abused in any way. They pull a carriage at a very slow pace.
 
UnoDiamante
UnoDiamante
8 months ago
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I think there should be regular, and careful inspections of the care the horses are receiving...Some of their feet and coats look horrible...
 
Kirby  W.
Kirby W. (KirbyW)
8 months ago
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I think that these horses are sometimes treated better than many horses that don't have job's. Just because these horses work, doesn't mean they are abused. The handlers have been working with the ASPCA to take care of the animals and treat them fairly and humanely - we need to come to agreement for a happy medium. There needs to be a balance between these politicians and the horses.
 
sllange
sllange
8 months ago
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I don't really think the horses are being abused. There are a lot of working animals. Work does not equal abuse.
 
Jacqie O.
Jacqie O. (OsborneJ)
8 months ago
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It is fun to go on a carrage ride, but if they are not treating their horses correctly they need to ban them. I feel bad when they are out in the cold. They need regular horsie lives...out feeding in a lovely pasture somewhere. Not walking the city streets in freezing cold weather with polluted air.
 
berniem
berniem
8 months ago
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Do we really need carriage rides anymore? They are not only in the park, the horses are out in the street where they may get hurt.
 
Jackie K.
Jackie K. (amaroqhope)
8 months ago
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It is true that there have been cases of abuse and neglect, but I think what it comes down to is that "one person ruins it for everyone" sort of issue. While most carriage drivers go to great lengths to care for their horses, (and they should, since that is their livelyhood), there are a few who do not and this is where our problem comes in.
 
Beth H.
Beth H. (CozeeValee)
8 months ago
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It all comes down to responsible ownership! I get so tired of owners getting away with not properly taking care of their animals. This is going on way too much!
 
PamBart
PamBart
8 months ago
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These operators must know which palm to grease given the fact that the carriages are still operating in 2009.
 
Jerry F.
Jerry F. (jfinch)
8 months ago
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If left without regulation, humans will slip to the lowest possible level. If these carrage people had taken care of the horses, this would be a nonissue
 
Lorraine G.
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How about keeping the carriage rides and the owners and drivers use basic common sense - take care of your commodity - the horses!!!!!
 
mary k.
mary k. (rosesinmay77)
8 months ago
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You would think. Amazing they didnt see it this way.
 
Margie L.
Margie L. (MsLefty)
8 months ago
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As long as the quality of life is good for the horses, they should continue the carriage rides. But I don't think that's the case.
 
JoEllen G.
JoEllen G. (jogdiddy)
8 months ago
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Better monitoring practices & less working hours for the horses might be helpful if this practice is to be ongoing.
 
Jessica S.
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Exactly what I was thinking,
 
Cynthia J.
Cynthia J. (MrsJewett)
8 months ago
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I think they should keep the carriage rides, its not like a ton of horses, and horses are working horses.
 
Allie M.
Allie M. (allie3)
8 months ago
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I agree completely...I love to see the horses but hate to think what an awful life it must be. We really should ban it.
 
LauraSpell
LauraSpell
8 months ago
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when i was younger i used to love riding the horses in the carriages. but now that i am older, i absolutely hate seeing horses being put to work like that. you know they can't be happy
 
kaye m.
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Let's get rid of this awful practice
 
Shari S.
Shari S. (drshari)
8 months ago
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hope nyc will follow suite & get rid of this outdated practice!
 
sbdts
sbdts
8 months ago
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This practice has to go. Way too many accidents, and horses shouldn't have to work like this.
 
Norman C.
Norman C. (carlisle)
8 months ago
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Monitoring and regulating tightly would seem to be okay.
 
Jackie W.
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I feel bad that the horses have to deal with all those cars and people in NYC.
 
Joan B.
Joan B. (JOANBOWLING)
8 months ago
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I feel so sorry for these horses.
 
becky8278
becky8278
8 months ago
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Carriage rides are one of few romantic aspects of NYC... Guess honeymooners will need to find someplace better, like anywhere.
 
marie s.
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I agree with you stewman!
 
stewman
stewman
8 months ago
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Horsedrawn carriage rides are okay in Central Park if closely regulated and monitored. You don't need to be a genius to know that they don't belong on city streets in city traffic.
 
Muffie4
Muffie4
8 months ago
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Carriage rides in a big city with CARS doesn't make sense. But what will happen to these horses if it is shut down; that could be a problem. Perhaps the company could move to a type of engine drawn vehicle with open air to provide the tours and keep employment up.
 
angelle f.
angelle f. (afury)
8 months ago
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If they ban it in NYC then it will probably start everywhere else to. I live near New Orleans and they have the horse drawn carriages too and we always take one when we go into the city, I never thought they were treated bad.
 
Sarah C.
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Maybe this was a good idea 30 year ago, but not now, not the way NYC is today.
 
Mary W.
Mary W. (rr2439)
8 months ago
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I always felt bad for this horses. THey looked so sad. I believe this should go to a santuary in the country.
 
mouyone
mouyone
8 months ago
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That would be nice, wouldn't it?
 
Sara D.
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they shouldnt shut the buziness down, thats not riight
 
Ella D.
Ella D. (dworn100)
8 months ago
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i agree i dont think they should either
 
steve t.
steve t. (darcknyte)
8 months ago
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If the city life is so bad and so dangerous, why don't they GFTO themselves? Have any of you driven in NYC traffic? "Speeding Vehicles" please... Quit trying to control people. If you think it's so wrong, then don't be a patron. Try to convince others it's wrong and not to use the carriages. Drive them out of business, if you can. But do not FORCE them out of business.
 
Julie S.
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I am completely against the way these horses are treated and what they endure. Busy New York streets are not the place for them. Extreme weather, speeding vehicles, and inadequate veterinary care are all huge dangers for them. Three horse deaths in 2 years is too many!! There shouldn't be any!!! I hate to see someone out of work, but it's not worth endangering an animals' life to ensure a job.
 
Erica R.
Erica R. (myfast)
8 months ago
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Interesting story. Seems like the horses don't enjoy it.
 
Lindsey B.
Lindsey B. (linzuar)
8 months ago
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Riding on a carriage through New York sounds like a wonderful time, but I admit I'd never thought of the conditions those horses are kept in. If they are unhappy, then of course it should be banned. $10 and up is a ridiculous fare, anyway.
 
ETH911
ETH911
8 months ago
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I hate to see horses doing this type of work. I don't think any of them have a good live. They always look sad to me.
 
peggy n.
peggy n. (peggyneaves)
8 months ago
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Carriage horses should be banned. Our retired carriage horse came to us afraid of long whips and with nasty looking hooves from pounding the streets. Horses do not belong on asphalt.
 
Kiera W.
Kiera W. (KEW777)
8 months ago
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this is not a question of whether a horse is a pet or not. horses used to be and many still are bred and trained to work. no one says that horses that are fed and watered and used all day to sow and plant crops is being abused it is the animal jobs and the carraige horses have jobs. as long as they are getting food water and shelter the service should be allowed to continue.
 
Megan B.
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I believe it should be banned.

 
Megan B.
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I think it depends on how the owners feel about the horses, pets or more than that?? Do they love them or just use them?
 
Dylyn H.
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As long as their being well cared for
 
Cory3
Cory3
8 months ago
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Best interest for all involved. Times have changed. Hopefully these horses are being well cared for.
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