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Carriage Ban Debated at NY City Hall Meeting

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It's been around since the 1940s, but tradition aside, horse carriages in New York City now have to go, one Councilman is saying. Tony Avella introduced the ban on the practice Friday at City Hall, where parties from both sides gave public testimonies.

NEW YORK -- A horse carriage ride through Central Park has been a classic tourist excursion since the 1940s, but a group of New Yorkers, led by Queens Councilman Tony Avella, are now saying "neigh" to the practice, which they cite as inhumane.

Avella introduced a ban on the practice on Friday afternoon at City Hall, where he and hundreds of people issued public testimonies against horse carriages.

It wasn't all laughs and a bale of hay, though -- several representatives of the approximate 285 carriage drivers also turned out, crying the potential loss of jobs this ban could prompt. They also said that the animals are treated fairly.

"You know what it is to have a job and not be able to pay your mortgage?" asked Kevin Brudie, a member of the union Teamsters Local 553, to the hundreds of people holding up signs of mutilated horses and the word "BAN!" on the steps of City Hall.

"You know what it is to have to walk through New York City midtown traffic for nine hours at a time, dodging cars and fumes?" one protester yelled back.

Inside City Hall, the ambiance retained a comparable intensity; Avella and other councilmen questioned representatives of the NYC Department of Health and NYC & Company, a marketing and tourism agency, hoping to assess the potential financial loss the city would face if the ban goes through.

Avella and the Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages say any monetary ramifications could not compete with the pressing issue of animal cruelty.

"This issue has to be put out to pasture," Avella said. "We believe we have grown enough in society to recognize cruelty to animals is no longer appropriate. This is an industry that makes its living on the backs of these animals."

The horses, which are all privately owned, are allowed to work eight to nine hours, seven days a week. They only must be brought into their stables if the temperature exceeds 90 degrees Fahrenheit, or dips below 19.

Three carriage horses perished in various accidents in 2006 and 2007, but the thought of a ban has been around since the 1970s, long before the deaths made headlines in New York City newspapers and television stations.

"This has been going on for years, but we couldn't get any politician to support it and introduce a bill until Tony Avella came along," said Christine MacMurray, vice president of the Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages. "We lose horses every year -- they die in the streets or are put down anyway."

Avella's measure, Intro 658, stands in opposition to Intro 653-A, which would raise horse carriage fares and amend regulations on the commercial industry, which draws in 550,000 to 700,000 tourists a year, according to NYC & Co.

Representatives from the company say the ban could cause the city's tourism industry to take a hit; Avella argues tourists don't just come to New York for a carriage ride, anyway.

Avella's ban would include provisions that provide for the drivers, granting them re-training opportunities in different professions. Teamsters Local 553, however, says that is not enough, and that this is "an issue of fairness," said Executive Officer Demos Demopoulos.

"This is about doing what is right for the working people, especially in this economy. The industry has not had a fare increase for over 20 years," he said.

Currently, carriage drivers are permitted to charge $10 for every 15 minutes; that fare is often manipulated, though, said Avella, citing higher prices listed on various Web sites.

"They are scamming New Yorkers left and right," he told Pet Pulse News.

Despite his qualm with the loose fare system, Avella said the issue here "is not really about the drivers. It's about the horses and their safety."

The ASPCA is partially responsible for monitoring the working animals' well-being. In 2008, the ASPCA conducted 54 separate inspections, according to Stephen Zawistowski, the organization's executive vice president and science advisor.

The majority of the horses were found in good health, but four have been sequestered to their stalls after the ASPCA deemed them too weak or sick to work. Inspectors also took issue with lighting conditions and the stables' placement on a second floor, which could make it difficult to fully evacuate all the animals during a fire.

"We have seen consistent difficulties and have catalogued problems," Zawistowski said. Despite the drivers' willingness to accept the ASPCA's recommendations along the way, the practice's inherent nature still presents problems, Zawistowski said.

"The law is still limited," he explained. "These horses will still be working on the streets, presented with the dangers of traffic, fumes and needing to go in and out of traffic. It's not the romantic image that is given."

One councilman then questioned Zawistowski, saying that all New Yorkers have to contend with a similar set of issues on a daily basis.

"New Yorkers make that choice for themselves," Zawitowski pointed out. "And they are not forced to do it for nine hours a day."

This cold winter, in particular, has been rough on the working horses, the ASPCA and the Humane Society of the United States say. In late December, the horses were kept out as a snow storm blew through Manhattan.

"I'm sure we all remember the first blistering ice storm on December 19, when the horses were forced to work that day," HSUS New York State Director Patrick Kwan said. "Despite it being bitter cold and icy, with slippery conditions, the horses were kept out."

The ASPCA eventually forced the drivers to bring the horses back into their stalls.

One driver named "Brenden," however, previously told Pet Pulse News that the drivers do not generally push the horses to work in harsh conditions.

"It's a-100 percent conformity on that law -- probably the only law in New York City that people conform to," said "Brenden" in an interview last summer. "Like last week, we got a four day block where it exceeded 90 degrees Fahrenheit, so we didn't even bother coming to work."

Demopolous maintained in the testimony that the drivers care for their animals properly and "know what they are doing." The horses, he says, are simply not abused.

Pet Pulse did not hear testimony from any of the drivers, who were represented by the teamster union. In previous interviews with Pet Pulse News, one driver said that he never works his horse "Colin" more than six hours a day.

"He works a five day week, Monday through Friday," said the driver, who only gave his first name, "Colin." "It's pretty easy, not very strenuous at all."

The NYC Department of Health backed the drivers during the testimony and opposed Avella's bill. It works alongside the ASPCA in conducting inspections and "monitoring the use of carriages to ensure a safe operation," according to Edgar Butts, the assistant commissioner of veterinary and pest control services.

The Department of Health has not cited any issues of health or safety that could support the ban, Butts said, noting that no working horses are younger than five, or older than 20 years.

There is no need, Butts said, to "destroy part of the ambiance of the city."

"We don't want to take away features that make New York more attractive when there is no need to," he said.

Avella has not set an exact time frame for passing the bill, explaining to Pet Pulse, "I really had to push for this hearing. Let's just see how it goes."

He has received some support from other members of the NYC council, but says that Mayor Mike Bloomberg's opposition to the ban has left people weary.

Avella believes, though, that as the ban receives additional media attention, more New Yorkers and tourists alike will support the cause. He recommends people talk to their councilmen and women about the ban.

"The average New Yorker who understands this issue will say, it is time for this industry to go," he said.

If the ban passes, New York City would join the ranks of London, Toronto, Paris and Beijing, which have all banned the practice.

Tell us what you think about “Carriage Ban Debated at NY City Hall Meeting” below. Share your favorite videos by clicking on the ZootooTV tab. Send us your story ideas by e-mailing us at news@zootoo.com or by calling us at 877-777-4204.



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daryl b.
daryl b. (darylob)
3 months ago
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does anyone know what is going on with this. a carrage ride through central park is wonderful
 
Erica M.
Erica M. (emonfils)
4 months ago
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I think this issue may be part of the larger question, what is the relationship between humans and other animals? In what ways, may humans use animals? What are the criteria we use to judge the morality of a particular use for an animal? The problem is we don't all agree. Some would say human entertainment is an acceptable use. Others would disagree with that, but believe using animals for food is okay. Some strive to avoid animal entertainment and products of all kinds. There are so many ways people differ in their viewpoints.
 
swayloveswasabi34
swayloveswasabi34
4 months ago
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it just needs to be regulated.
 
kbehrendt
kbehrendt
5 months ago
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I fully support the legislation; if nothing else, keep them in the parks, or somewhere off the roads. But I also agree that they need to do something to help the drivers into new professions; not only do they need to provide for themselves and their families, but I also would hate to see them get attacked by the manic animal activists ANOTHER time because now they can't feed or care for their horses anymore.
 
daryl b.
daryl b. (darylob)
5 months ago
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we have a mule barge near me. the only thing wrong with it is thatthe mules are too fat. it gets them out of their satals and a nice leisurly walk along the river canal. i even walked to the stable area and it was clean and they had a place to turn them out. they seemed very happy to have something to do. the one thing i worry about in nyc is the cartrafic. i do not think it should be baned just regulated like the truck drivers
 
Leslie D.
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I know it's controversial, but I think horse- & mule-carriage rides should be banned everywhere. Though it's charming & fun for humans, I've always been worried about the equines my whole life - I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one. The heat; the cold; the heavy loads; the long hours; the boring, stare-straight-ahead "blinders-view;" standing all day on hot or wet or icy, slippery concrete or asphalt or in stalls; no free-running on grass; the dangers of getting hit by a car, motorcycle, or bike-rider; etc. - these are all the atrocities forced on these magnificent creatures daily. I'm glad that New York is considering eliminating carriages, & I'm hopeful that the drivers can get other jobs.
 
Stephanie N.
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I think it should continue as long as the horses are treated fairly. I'd love to take a carriage ride if I ever went there.
 
Nick & Ashlee K.
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i think the most important thing is that the horses the care that they need and hopefully the owners can provide that. but as far as keeping them in the city, kinda of thrown by it. it is something that i havent experianced first hand so i can't really have to much say in it.
 
Edith F.
Edith F. (edithnotto)
7 months ago
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I know that this has been argued before. However, I would like to see them continue. It is a charming site, amidst all the noise and bustle of the city. Two weeks ago on a warm sunny weekend we sat in Central Park and watched the parade of carriages. If the horses are monitored for health and weather conditions, they should remain. I thought there were regulations preventing the horses from going out in extreme temperatures.
What would Fred Astaire think if we were to ban them?
 
Patricia  C.
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Any decision made about this yet? I among others would appreciate an update!
 
azzurrapl
azzurrapl
7 months ago
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I agree - where's the update?
 
R.T. F.
R.T. F. (rtfitch)
7 months ago
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This story is about a month old and it contains timely information.

I would like to see an update. Does anyone have any further information on this debate?

Thanks.

R.T.

R.T. Fitch
Author - "Straight from the Horse's Heart"
The Force of the Horse, LLC
1-800-974-FOTH
www.rtfitch.com

 
Anne S.
Anne S. (anne2003)
7 months ago
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I just want to know that the horses are being treated humanely.
 
peg c.
peg c. (pegcarr1)
7 months ago
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There should be better monitoring and only rides through the park-not on busy streets
 
Lucille Vaughn F.
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I think it should be stopped. It may hurt a few good owners, but from experience, you know that there are going to be some horses that are not going to get the care the should. It's true, one bad apple spoils the batch, but they should police themselves, and since they haven't, well, shut it down.
 
Autumn P.
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Wonder how this is going--hope they get them banned.
 
Ingrid M.
Ingrid M. (RaidersMom)
7 months ago
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I'm just glad the ASPCA is involved and looking out for the horses.
 
BFM
BFM
7 months ago
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It would be a shame if something as enjoyable as a carriage ride were discontinued.
 
Michelle  K.
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I can see where people are concerened about these horse's safety. I think that a ride through the park on a carriage would be a wonderful experience as long as these animals are treated well and are not in any danger.
 
hrstansbury
hrstansbury
7 months ago
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I've heard that the NYC horses are treated really well, but I just can't imagine that walking around the city is a happy life for them.
 
graciel
graciel
7 months ago
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So do they still have mounted policemen in NYC? What could possibly be the difference? The heat and traffic conditions would be the same for both.

 
tina c.
tina c. (tinacorcoran)
7 months ago
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I took one of these rides once and the whole time i was worried that the horse would be hit. I feel sorry for them.
 
Sherry B.
Sherry B. (shirlene)
7 months ago
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I'm glad to hear this. I've heard stories in other cities of how the horses are not treated well. You'd think they'd care very well for their horses since they are their livelihood, but not always so...This is also not to say that there are not those who take very good care of their animals.
 
Mel S.
Mel S. (Melody)
7 months ago
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As long as the horses are kept safe and not subjected from the freezing or extreme heat I guess it would be o.k. They definately need to be monitored.
 
Dylyn H.
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wow
 
Nickie A.
Nickie A. (NickieA)
7 months ago
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Check out this site:www.banhdc.org You'll see why there needs to be a ban. Horses don't do well with crazy city traffic.
 
Jesse D.
Jesse D. (Dysfunctund)
7 months ago
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what are the results of hti???
 
LuAnne R.
LuAnne R. (LuAnne9960)
7 months ago
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You know I have only been to NYC twice and the ride through Central Park has been a wonderful memory. Let's think about this before we ban them. Our country has been based on the house and carriage and now because it is 2009 we have to ban it. Give me a break.
 
frank g.
frank g. (knarf74)
7 months ago
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whatever is best for the horses and keeps them safe.
 
Anna
Anna (Banzoe)
7 months ago
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As long as the horses are being treated well I don't see it as too much of a bad thing. I agree with some of the safety concerns that were brought up like the second story stable need to be addressed.
 
Ha123
Ha123
7 months ago
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Horses don't belong in NYC. It's noisey and crowded and has a tremoendous amount of traffic. In the summer it can be unbearably hot on the street tar.
 
poco2luv
poco2luv
7 months ago
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Just like with any animal owner, there are good ones and bad ones. I'm sure there are a lot of good owners that love their animals and wouldn't want anything bad to happen to them.
 
cbytheriver
cbytheriver
7 months ago
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It may be a tradition but not all traditions are good. It must be hard on the horses.
 
onic4
onic4
7 months ago
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I think that if the horses aren't being overworked and abused that the practice could continue. I know other cities still have their horse carriages.
 
Nalabeau
Nalabeau
7 months ago
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I don't know much about horses so I'm not sure if pulling a carriage around all day is hard work for them. Not only do they have these in Chicago but Mackinac Island is vehicle free so to get around they use horse drawn carriages or bicycles. If the animals aren't being abused I'm okay with them "working".
 
Jewel L.
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I was in Chicago last summer & it was in July we saw these poor horses giving carriage rides it was so hot, I felt so sorry for them after watching for an hour, I never saw them get water & the horses were just soaked it was that hot, I cant imagine they were enjoying this at all! I hope they do away w/ it after seeing what the conditions were like.
 
Megan N.
Megan N. (Meg8777)
7 months ago
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If the horses are swtiched out often and treated well, I'm not sure it's a horrible thing....they're shoed for the concrete. But it does suck that they probably aren't in a pasture very often if at all...
 
Julie U.
Julie U. (jamesjulie)
7 months ago
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I hope this is banned. I believe one of the issues is that the horses are walking on streets all day. It wouldn't be a problem if they were "working" all day in pastures and fields but their feet aren't designed to walk on concrete all day, everyday.
 
jen g.
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I've been in a horse drawn carriage in the city, but it was a long time ago, and I never did it again.
 
Mary Lynn H.
Mary Lynn H. (Hethly)
7 months ago
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I've enjoyed rides in many European cities within "no vehicle zones" this is a much safer way to go for the animals, their drivers and the customers.
 
jane w.
jane w. (chocho)
7 months ago
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If the animals are treated humanly and the drivers sited for violations I do not see any problems with the issue. Even if a horse is "working" eight hours a day that does not mean he is pulling a carriage all the time.
 
Meems
Meems
7 months ago
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So, what is the status of that proposed ban?
 
Annette1117
Annette1117
7 months ago
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Wish there were good answers for all involved.
 
dorothy w.
dorothy w. (cubmom74)
7 months ago
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why dont they enforce different rules that everyone can live with
 
Evelync
Evelync
7 months ago
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They should put a stop to carriage rides
 
Justin S.
Justin S. (Justin1025)
7 months ago
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I would take both sides but I just don't like seeing animals in pain.
 
Leslie B.
Leslie B. (LeslieBaum)
7 months ago
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I'm always amazed that this still goes on. ANYWHERE. At one of our big shopping malls they have horse drawn carriage rides during Christmas. P-L-E-A-S-E!
 
Emma C.
Emma C. (emmac)
7 months ago
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i see both sides of this debate. but those horses never look all that happy....
 
Kristen S.
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I understand both sides...I just hate to see those animals...they look so miserable with that bit in their mouth...Imagine that thing in your mouth all day long....OMG - just thinking about it makes me claustrophobic. I wish there was a better way to strap them all up that made them more comfy. That's my opinion.
 
deb o.
deb o. (dbolle)
7 months ago
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i see both sides but i would never want to see an animal mistreated (obviously).
 
traceylbosinski
traceylbosinski
8 months ago
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If the animal is treated the way it should be then there shouldn't be an issue of it. But if these drivers are being abusive to them then the ban should be in place and the heck with tradition.
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