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Dog Trainers' Methods Trigger Abuse Claims

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Controversy in the world of dog training, with old methods pitted against the new. Some call the old way of training abusive, preferring the newer method of encouragement and reward. One New York city-based trainer has come under scrutiny for his training techniques.

NEW YORK -- Dog training has never been more glamorous than in the past few years, following the 2004 debut of National Geographic Channel's hit series "Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan."

While the show has brought canine care and training to the forefront of American households, a shroud of confusion still engulfs the booming industry of dog training.

"You know there are TV shows, and they are very entertaining, but it's a TV show and really serious problems can't be fixed in a half an hour," said Barbara Dyer, New Jersey director of the Humane Society of America.

Among behaviorists and devoted animal lovers, a debate wages between various schools of thought, as the general public is stuck waffling -- trying to make sense of new terms such as clickers, "flooding" and being a pack leader.

That is where trainers, like New York City-based Tibor Feigel, are getting caught in the crossfire. Feigel runs the NYC-based company, Zen K-9, and he and his workers are often seen walking and training packs of dogs, big and small, in the public fish bowl of Central Park.

Although Feigel is often praised for putting his clients' dogs into a Zen-like state, his methods have come under scrutiny, launching an Internet campaign against him and his company.

One anonymous e-mail that was forwarded to Pet Pulse News read, " ... a pack walking company named Zen K-9 is using force to train and walk the dogs. They have been seen punching, kicking, hanging and two dogs died running in traffic as the head trainer was loading his van."

Other similar e-mails and online postings flooded the message board under the company’s demo on YouTube.com. However, Pet Pulse News was unable to track down or identify the people behind the e-mails.

Despite the reports that have surfaced online, mainly on YouTube.com, the New York Police Department and Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals have not received any formal complaints against Zen K-9.

However, Rescue Ink, a New York City-based rescue nonprofit, received approximately 300 complaints about Feigel's training techniques. Rescue Ink members say that they believe there is no merit to the claims, given the lack of first-hand accounts.

Rescue Ink also has not found a picture or video proving the alleged abuse.

Feigel says he believes that a female competitor is behind the attacks and has hired an attorney, who has virtually had most of the e-mail messages deleted from Internet message boards.

Feigel did say, however, that some people may misinterpret his techniques as excessive.

"Of course, people see us submitting the dog ... Submission is the question pretty much. Is it my technique that's harsh?" asked Feigel, who often trains dogs with behavioral issues.

"I believe in the very calm, but assertive energy and as long as we can keep that in front of them, there is no need for punching, kicking, hitting, or even using just a piece of stick to get them to where they need to be."

Contrary to the Internet claims, no animal has ever died in his care, says Feigel, who also uses assertive body language and a training collar for correcting.

"So old school, new school, I'm using everything that is out there," Feigel said. "I would never harm or abuse an animal."

Claims like the ones made against Feigel, regardless of their actual authenticity, are never to be taken lightly when first presented. In a separate case, one 30-year dog training veteran has recently learned that all too well, as he is now facing animal cruelty charges in New Jersey.

Abuse Claims Land Trainer in Court

Jeffrey Loy is accused of using, among other things, a cattle prod, a sling shot, a PVC pipe and his bare hands to curb a dog's behavior.

"I was appalled when I heard that and really shocked that anybody would do some of those things," Dyer said.

New Jersey SPCA's Cpl. Al Peterson says Loy's methods have been objected to by professionals in the animal cruelty, the animal behavior and the animal training industries.

The seven cases now pending against Loy date back to 1995, which is within New Jersey's statute of limitation. Cpl. Peterson says many people feared coming forward before now because of threats Loy made against them, their pets and veterinarians.

"One of the complainants had described to me that he was afraid to come forward for fear of a lawsuit," Peterson said.

All of Loy's clients signed non-disclosure and hold-harmless agreements. He was paid up to a thousand dollars a session. Authorities say some of them were referred to Loy by their veterinarians. As part of the Loy investigation, officials are looking into whether the vets knew of Loy's training methods and participated in the harassment of his clients.

Barbara Dyer, with the NJ State Humane Society, says fear should never be a part of dog training.

"A trainer really shouldn't dominate a dog or you," she said. "If your dog is afraid of the trainer, you should be afraid, also ... Any training methods that punishes or uses submission is out of date. Everything today is positive."

Knowing What's Abuse & What's Not

Usually consumers can trust professionals, but in an unregulated industry, pet owners are wise to be fully aware of various training techniques.

Dyer says any training methods that punish or use submission is out-of-date. Feigel, who does use submission as part of his training for certain dogs, falls within this category.

"They think submission is pinning an animal to the ground and keeping it there," Fiegel said of the kinds of methods which give submission a bad name. "Submission can just be me looking at a dog and he is going to respond by sitting down or laying down."

The Humane Society of the United States, the SPCA and law enforcement agencies all say any type of physical or mental abuse is unacceptable. This includes, choking, yelling or screaming, kicking, punching, and the use of shock collars.

"Anything that falls into the guideline of animal cruelty is not animal behavior modification, it is not training," said Cpl. Peterson.

The best method, according to the Humane Society of the United States, is encouragement and reward.

"Trust yourself, you may not quite understand what is going on, but if it doesn't seem right, stop it," Dyer advised. "Stop the session and speak to your trainer about it."

The HSUS also encourages pet owners to trust their instincts about trainers and to use common sense. If you suspect your pet is being harmed, report it immediately to either the SPCA or the local authorities.

Tell us what you think about "Dog Trainers' Methods Trigger Abuse Claims" below. Share your favorite videos by clicking on the ZootooTV tab. Send us your story ideas by e-mailing us at news@zootoo.com or by calling us at 877-777-4204.



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Barbara R.
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The NJ in the article sounds lihe hasn't come out of the dark ages. His methods are barbaric. However the NYC guy is a different story. Yu can be dominant without being cruel. Your dog must know who the leader is. He really has control of a lot of dogs at the same time and none seem stessed. Just calm and ready to listen. These two trainers shouldn't be classified the same.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
7 months ago
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Yes, so many of us have said the same thing.
 
azzurrapl
azzurrapl
7 months ago
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Just for the record - I hope Loy ands up in prison......He deserves that - actually he deserves a lot worse - but I won't go there!
 
margaret l.
margaret l. (longshm)
7 months ago
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We should send some of these guys to Arkansas where they would be convicted as felons
 
inga l.
inga l. (bsgirl)
7 months ago
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Is that the law out there?
 
donna881
donna881
7 months ago
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How unfortunate that someone with so many years training dogs doesn't have the common sense to know cruelty is not a way to train a dog. As humans we can be forced to act in a certain way , but at some point we usually rebel. Humans and animals willingly respond when they feel positive about their behavior. Dogs do need discipline but that word means to teach, not abuse.
 
inga l.
inga l. (bsgirl)
7 months ago
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I agree, Donna.
 
inga l.
inga l. (bsgirl)
7 months ago
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I agree, Donna.
 
midwestwoman
midwestwoman
7 months ago
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Good article in that it addresses a current issue in dog training. To train animals properly it is important to understand how animals process information and what motivates them. What has been good about the TV shows on dog training is that it has helped raise public awareness. At least people may be in a better position to ask questions and do research on training methods.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
7 months ago
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I totally concur with you on this. The t.v. trainer star lovers seem to think that people are so against him. That is not true. He has done a terrific job in bringing light to the fact that dogs need leadership, exercise and can be trained or if they have problems, look for an educated person. He is very clear about this, which I appreciate. What I, and so many others, do not appreciate is the methodology used. While, there are many segments that I have no problems with, some shows have made me cringe.
 
inga l.
inga l. (bsgirl)
7 months ago
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Ditto!
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
7 months ago
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If you are going to be an effective trainer, you need to understand the meaning of correction. A correction is an unpleasant action that happens the moment the dog stops trying to do what you have asked him to do. A correction is not a random act of violence. Good trainers should train their dogs how to control whether or not a correction occurs by teaching him that rewards will come provided he comply. A correction is something the dog has learned how to stop and how to avoid.

There seems to be misinformation about correction. Are you afraid to grill in fear of being burned? You know how to avoid being burned by not putting your hands in the fire. When you avoid getting burned, the reward follows - a juicy steak, perhaps. A dog should never fear that he will be corrected and never feel frightened or scared when training. If he does, you have stepped over the line.
 
midwestwoman
midwestwoman
7 months ago
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I agree, and there is a difference between correction and punishment. Correction is telling the dog ina humane way, "No, that's not what I was looking for." Punishment is just that - using a verbal reprimand or physical force to inflict discomfort with the purpose of decreasing the liklihood a behavior will be repeated.
 
Lynne F.
Lynne F. (Lynne4jet)
8 months ago
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Animals should be trained with love and patience. If the handler is aggressive, then the animal will be aggressive.
 
midwestwoman
midwestwoman
7 months ago
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Abuse creates fear and fear can result in fear aggression.
 
inga l.
inga l. (bsgirl)
7 months ago
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And, people don't get that??????
 
Julie T.
Julie T. (jultant)
8 months ago
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I have watched Ceaser Milan use a technique that is more harsh than us non dog trainers would use. That is because we are not educated enough to use them. Rather than putting dogs down or sending them to shelters, there are some training methods that are a bit more "harsh". Treats will not stop an aggressive dog.
 
jo f.
jo f. (libradance)
8 months ago
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I agree....treats will not stop an aggressive animal!!! Most animals respond to love and care....but not all!!
 
Fran G.
Fran G. (MON)
8 months ago
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I have only seen the show a few times since we don't get that channel, but the few cases I've seen, Milan is trying to undo the bad behaviors owners have instilled or tolerated. A truly damaged dog needs more than biscuits.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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No one is saying that treats will stop aggression. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. I deal with aggression cases daily and use all four quadrants of the operant conditioning paradigm. Positive training does not mean biscuits. Positive training can include positive punishment.
 
Marty T.
Marty T. (MTrezza)
7 months ago
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What???? I have no idea what you are talking about, sorry.
 
Gleb S.
Gleb S. (Carrot)
7 months ago
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What you say (and Cesar Milan does) may sound right for a novice or for a trainer that hadn't taken any steps in understanding dog behavior. My first two dog trainers used those methods and guess what? It did not worked at all! Because they could not see that the dog was fearful and their methods just made her even worse... I now totally convinced they have no clue how to treat fearful dogs. Cesar is maybe good in reading dog's mind BUT his methods are horrible. And waht you see is just a TV show. If you believe Cesar, you must be NAIVE and do you believe other stuff you see on TV! People love fairy tales and Cesar delivers those...
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Harsh is harsh, abuse is abuse. When you use harsh methods that are abusive, do you consider this fine in the name of training? Also, I'm not sure what you mean about treats no stopping aggressive dogs. That doesn't make sense if you understand the science behind rewards and punishment and the use of classical and operant conditioning. You are using the word aggressive as a personality trait or an adjective. Aggression is a behavior as a result of a socially conflicted dog. You are correct, treats will not stop a dog from exhibiting behavior, but it they can, at times, help to change the classical association of what is causing the dog to exhibit aggression.
 
midwestwoman
midwestwoman
7 months ago
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I'm not sure what you mean by treats not curing aggression, Julie. Actually food treats can be used effectively in desensitization and counter-conditioning in the treatment of aggression in dogs.
 
Corinna S.
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Fear and submission have no place in training. Dogs will do anything you want of them just to please you. Why terrorize them??!!?? This guy has no business training animals.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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The terminology that is being used here is making my head spin. I have to stop reading since it much of it doesn't make an ounce of sense. Behaviors are being used as personality traits and vice versa.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Loy has been charged in connection with a 2007 incident involving a family in N.J. He is also being investigated by authorities of an incident that occurred in another area of N.J. He used a cattle prod and slingshot when traininga 25 pound silky terrier.
 
Dani D.
Dani D. (bananika)
8 months ago
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I'm all about treats and praise!
 
Marty T.
Marty T. (MTrezza)
8 months ago
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To read more about the second trainer, go towww.recordernewspapers.com The name of the article is Trainer charged with beating dog.
 
Michelle E.
Michelle E. (lucyb8)
8 months ago
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Thanks.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Yes, the article was written by Phil Garber, Managing Editor of the Observer-Tribune. The first paragraph states that "A township man who claims to be "the world's leading authority on the rehabilitation of fighting and biting dogs" has been charged with intentionally baiting a dog in his care to bite him and then beating the dog with a pipe, causing internal injuries."
 
Sharri G.
Sharri G. (SGrise)
8 months ago
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I agree that submissive training has a bad name. And because of trainers like this that it does!
 
Marty T.
Marty T. (MTrezza)
8 months ago
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Just to clarify - submissive training is not a technique. Submission is a behavior. But, I know what you mean and agree.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Yes, that is correct. You can say that coercive or forced-based training is not the way to go to cause a dog to exhibit submissive behavior.
 
midwestwoman
midwestwoman
7 months ago
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Good point, Marty. And by the way, the whole "alpha" concept is outdated.
 
Marty T.
Marty T. (MTrezza)
7 months ago
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Finally - - someone with knowledge speaks - - no to those that are making sense!
 
Marty T.
Marty T. (MTrezza)
7 months ago
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But, people can't seem to let it go, can they?
(more replies)
 
Barbara S. R.
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WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL
 
9robin58
9robin58
8 months ago
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Sounds like they went to far.Lets sick The real dog whisperer on them.
 
Janice K.
Janice K. (krujan)
8 months ago
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I definitely prefer the positive training techniques.
 
codymn
codymn
8 months ago
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I think it's good to analyze training methods, as long as people are not quick to judge w/out merit.
 
Sylvia C.
Sylvia C. (SylviaCM)
8 months ago
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Like someone already said, I don't think its abusive to roll them on their back to show them who's boss, if they require that lesson, but not hitting or punching! I'm blessed with well behaved dogs who only wake up to play or go outside, but I also believe dogs take emulate our behavior- I have a very calm home and have very calm pets.
 
butterflymeadow
butterflymeadow
8 months ago
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But in the wild, an "alpha roll" is what is done before a dog (wolf, coyote, etc.) is killed. It's not "Hey look, I'm in charge," it's "Hey, I'm going to kill you." Alpha rolls can make an already fearful dog turn on the roller out of pure defense for its life. Bad idea if you ask me.
 
Marty T.
Marty T. (MTrezza)
8 months ago
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Read Pia S.'s journals from yesterday. She clarifies it quite well.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Sorry, but no - - that's not when it is used.
 
Erika  N.
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If they are punching or kicking those dogs they have crossed the line. I do think that some dogs need to be told who is boss by being rolled onto their backs though.
 
butterflymeadow
butterflymeadow
8 months ago
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I replied above, but just in case you don't check back without seeing that someone replied to you:

In the wild, an "alpha roll" is what is done before a dog (wolf, coyote, etc.) is killed. It's not "Hey look, I'm in charge," it's "Hey, I'm going to kill you." Alpha rolls can make an already fearful dog turn on the roller out of pure defense for its life. Bad idea if you ask me.
 
lallyke
lallyke
8 months ago
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this is absurd no animal should be treated this way and this man should be prosecuted
 
lin c.
lin c. (lchicola)
8 months ago
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I can't believe someone would pay to have their pet kicked and punched.
 
erinblaise
erinblaise
8 months ago
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If he really is kicking and punching and choking dogs he really does need to be put out of business. Anyone who behaves like that will have to answer to a higher power.
 
Laura
Laura (collegelm)
8 months ago
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Gee - a pet needs to be behaved and safely fit into their environment with children, etc. but surely positive means of teaching pets is more beneficial??
 
Dorian G.
Dorian G. (glazed)
8 months ago
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I think...wait... I know that I would prefer positive training and not be worried that the animal is just going to "snap" some day!
 
Tonda G.
Tonda G. (tondafoxNH)
8 months ago
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hmm the things that make you go hmmmm
 
Michelle R.
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This is horrible. No matter what the results, it's cruel to treat animals that way. And to neglect them!
 
Coral D.
Coral D. (davisc)
8 months ago
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What a schmuck.
 
Marty T.
Marty T. (MTrezza)
7 months ago
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Good one!
 
mustangak
mustangak
8 months ago
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I don't care if you're old school OR new school! Cruel and unusual is just that, if you can't train a willing animal like a canine without stress or abuse, then you my friend know NOTHING about training a dog
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior issued a new position paper aimed at countering some of the pervasive influences shown on television. They feel what is being shown is an outdated dominance theory. The statement says:

"The AVSAB recommends that veterinarians not refer clients to trainers or behavior consultants who coach and advocate dominance hierarchy theory and the subsequent confrontational training that follows from it."

They feel that we have been moving away from dominance theory and punitive training techniques for many years now. The position statement further says that the ideas that dogs act like pack animals and that packs have a strict, dominant alpha-dog hierarchy are erroneous.
 
Gleb S.
Gleb S. (Carrot)
8 months ago
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that is a good move... but why would veterinarians follow this advice? Is someone thinking about some sort of regulation of the dog trainers?
 
Ain't that the truth!
 
Angie T.
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It's adorable that he calls it a "zen-like state" when it seems like it may actually be semi-consciousness. Hanging?! Good trainers don't need fear and violence. It just shows ignorance. If you can't do it right, force it. Bullies.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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LOL - - good one!
 
squale001
squale001
8 months ago
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People should be evolving -- sometimes it seems we are going the opposite way...
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Not everyone!
 
DorisWilloughby
DorisWilloughby
8 months ago
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I have to say extreme training is called for sometimes but extreme patience is also needed.Dogs are like children they need to be taught right and wrong.Love and patience can get more and better results than all the shock collars and cattle prods in the world.TRY IT YOU MAY LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Try what? Shock collars and cattle prods?
 
Linda
Linda (lcolson4)
8 months ago
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I trained my little dog without ever laying a hand on him and never raised my voice. He learned quickly that I was the "leader of the pack." Using the techniques of some of these trainers does not produce well-trained dogs; instead it produces fearful, timid dogs.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Nicely said. But, my dogs are not my pack. They are my beloved best friends.
 
Lindsey B.
Lindsey B. (linzuar)
8 months ago
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Well done. I believe that usually dogs respect their owners as long as they are shown respect themselves. With a good relationship like that to begin with, an owner should never have to "assert dominance" aside from just letting the dog know if they're doing something wrong.
 
Desiree
Desiree (desifol)
8 months ago
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this will always be a contraversial topic. all annabelle needed was one light pop on her hiney now she obeys just fine, she is not by any means fearful or scared of me! it didn't work for corky (stubborn lab) so we use differnt things on him. i dont believe in animal abuse or making animals hurt or injuing animals. there is alwys going to be a fine line of what is considered ok and what is considered abuse.
 
Ashley A.
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It is wrong to use abuse while trying to train a dog. You want the dog to trust you not fear you!
 
Anonymous
Anonymous
8 months ago
This comment has been removed.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Exactly!
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Nicely said.
 
Jennifer
Jennifer (jen5430)
8 months ago
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Training also used to be choking dogs with choke collars. We've learned that this method of training is not effective and harmful to dog's throats. I don't believe in any form of pain being used as a discipline or training measure. There has to be a more humane way to train a dog.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Well, it can be effective if done correctly. But, I think all choke collars should be dumped into the garbage. I used them years back and have to admit, I was pretty good at it. Yet, it was horrible. The dogs listened due to fear, not trust or enjoyment. Why are so many people for harsh training methods, but then say that dogs are the best thing on earth? If they are, why treat them this way?
 
Meems
Meems
8 months ago
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Many say the old way is outdated including spanking of children, but we sure had a better society then. Give me the old way!
 
containapetofwilm
containapetofwilm
8 months ago
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I love dogs. I have 4. If you observe how they treat each other for any length of time you KNOW there's a pecking order in the pack. And just like the mother dog disciplines and praises her pups, that's how I treat them. No punishment, no pain, never a raised voice or hitting. Is that wrong? That's all alpha versus submissive roles are. Nothing more.
 
patricia s.
patricia s. (wassong)
8 months ago
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UGH! This is horrible.
 
frank g.
frank g. (knarf74)
8 months ago
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theres no need to spank and kids and theres no need to physical force a dog into submission. yes, they are tools that can produce desired results...but there NOT needed.
 
Lisa S.
Lisa S. (lisasquirrel)
8 months ago
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using a cattle prod is extreme and cruel, but sometimes you need to be mildly physical. I believe in spanking children, but if you use it sparingly it works better. If the animals are injured it is wrong.
 
puppiesloveme
puppiesloveme
8 months ago
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i hope its not true!
 
Janet
Janet (janetg2)
8 months ago
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It is never ok to harm anyone, animals or people. I trained my pets without harming them. If you spend enough time and love they will learn to the best of their ability. It is so sad that people think they can beat animals and think it is justified. What gives them that right?
 
Barbara S. R.
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YOU CAN'T BE TOO CAREFUL
 
puppiesloveme
puppiesloveme
8 months ago
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i agree
 
Dave M.
Dave M. (davemuscato)
8 months ago
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Innocent until proven guilty...

Folks, keep in mind that dogs are animals, okay? They don't understand logic the way humans do. As far as using weapons, do you really think that when an alpha dog is trying to put another dog in his place, he doesn't use his teeth?

I am NOT advocating that we start abusing animals, but there is a difference between punishment (which has a legitimate place in animal behavior training) and abuse (which doesn't). Punishment can be something as simple as taking away a toy—it is identified in animal behavior-training circles as "anything that reduces a behavior."

Positive punishment (adding something bad, like pain, to reduce an unwanted behavior) is outdated, in my opinion, but negative punishment (taking away something good, like a toy) is also "punishment." Don't fall into the trap of thinking that the media is always 100% accurate on stuff like this... it's big news when someone is "abusing" an animal, but like I said, innocent until proven guilty.

It's pretty unlikely that a trainer who gets up to $1k/hr is actually abusing dogs yet doesn't have a SINGLE formal complaint against him. Frankly, I'm inclined to believe his story that one of his competitors made it up.
 
Meg S.
Meg S. (drambuie)
8 months ago
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You make some good points and I agree that someone is innocent until proven guilty. I have lived in the area where this man "trains" and have heard things about him for years. Hopefully, this time he will be removed from his line of work.
 
Imelda  B.
Imelda B. (Imburke)
8 months ago
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be careful...we shouldn't judge, listen to the press/believe them 100%....but animals can't complain and give you their thoughts...someone needs to watch over them. There are many ways of training....I've worked with both ends (of trainers) and made my own choices...and I'm at peace/ I went my way!
 
jo f.
jo f. (libradance)
8 months ago
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I agree with you. When we watch animals, they establish their pecking order and it's not in a way we humans are always comfortable with. If we watch the female of the species, she disciplines her children and cares/loves them at the same time. I certainly don't believe in abuse of animals (or children for that matter) but they have to learn consequences for their behavior or else they grow up to be unruly and dangerous. Let's hope they will investigate this to the fullest, find out the real truth and settle it appropriately.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Sorry, but dogs do not have pecking orders. That term came from chickens.
 
jo f.
jo f. (libradance)
8 months ago
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Sure they do....just like cats and horses. These are the only animals I've actually watched, but I would assume it is the same in every species. You take one out of the group and when you return them they re-establish their order. There is always the leader (alpha) and the rest follow in regard to how submissive they are....they go down the line....:).
 
Fran G.
Fran G. (MON)
8 months ago
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I think the point is, dogs respect a dominance hierarchy. Social animals function comfortably within a dominance hierarchy and a well socialized dog does not dominate humans. Those that do are potentially dangerous.
 
steve d.
steve d. (spd5ia)
7 months ago
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Sorry, but you are wrong! Dogs do have a hierarchy, sometimes there is no clear cut alpha but that depends on the individual dogs, situations, etc...I have watched my own dogs for more than 20 years and have seen it myself. It can be very subltle but it is always there.
(more replies)
 
Abuse is abuse is abuse AND he DOES use abuse as a training method.Let us see what the courts think of his methods of training and the consequences of those training methods..
 
Dave M.
Dave M. (davemuscato)
8 months ago
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I don't understand why there has not been a single formal complaint, if this is true.

I agree that abuse has *** NO *** place in animal training, none, whatsoever. There's a HUGE difference between punishment and abuse. Like I said before, punishment can be something as simple as taking away a toy. Punishment is simply defined in as anything that reduces some specific behavior. It doesn't necessarily include any physical contact at all, let alone physical pain. All it means is that it reduces, rather than reinforces, a behavior. Positive reinforcement (adding something good) is, in my opinion, a better way to train animals, but that doesn't mean punishment equals abuse!

In any case, do you know this guy? Are/were you a client of his? I mean, are you just reading this media story and saying, "This guy will face the consequences," or do you actually have some inside knowledge about what this article claims? I just think it's weird that no one has filed a formal complaint, if he's truly abusing his clients' animals.
 
Marty T.
Marty T. (MTrezza)
7 months ago
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There have been several formal complaints filed if you read the article in the Observer-Tribune.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Sorry, Dave, but there is no such thing as an 'alpha dog' - - read the science.
 
Dave M.
Dave M. (davemuscato)
8 months ago
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Pia, I've studied animal behavior personally, in fact it was my job for awhile. I'd be happy to look at any research you have, if you want to send me a link, but there is an enormous body of work in group dynamics that establishes orders of authority in dog packs (just like with humans and many other animalia).
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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And, it is my job. Sorry, I don't feel strong enough to debate this issue and research the links. Your opinion is your opinion and that is fine.
(more replies)
 
Jeannie Lee
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Using wepons to train animals is sickening! I feel that pet owners should take classes on how to train their own pets. that way they can judge for themselves and gain trust with their pets as well.
 
Darcy H.
Darcy H. (Haimer1)
8 months ago
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This makes me sad to think he trains dogs like that. I think there are better ways then being so abusive. Come on would he want someone doing those things to him. I think not. So why would an animal want that done to them. The sad part is the animals can speak up for themselves and tell how they really feel when they get trained like that. Poor dogs.
 
cyria
cyria (cyria)
8 months ago
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From a mental health stand point, this individual needs to seek treatment for his inability to cope with his aggression and problem solving skills.
 
lallyke
lallyke
8 months ago
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this man should be ashamed that he treats life this way
 
Marie E.
Marie E. (7789)
8 months ago
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Tough love may not be okay for animals. There is a line to be drawn here in training any animal.
 
Fran G.
Fran G. (MON)
8 months ago
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Abuse is never OK, but dominance does not necessarily result in fear. In fact, I wouldn't own a dog who did not perceive me as dominant. There are a lot of people who claim to be dog trainers who have absolutely inadequate background. Clicker training works well when done right, but it requires a level of skill and time that is beyond a lot of average dog owners. Traditional training techniques are easy to learn, rely on lots of praise for reinforcement, and corrections are designed to get the dog's attention, not inflict pain or fear. My friend's dog has been in a new-age training program for a year now and still doesn't reliably sit on command. In my opinion, a poorly trained dog is at risk and the owners are constantly stressed. I vote for old school foundations with lots praise, occasional treats, and clicker training to do advanced/specialty work. Dogs are domestic animals. They have been bred to submit to a human-structured world and they thrive on affectionate "domination".
 
containapetofwilm
containapetofwilm
8 months ago
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Great point. Fact is most people don't really understand how dogs think. They think they're being cute when they jump on us,take things from us, pull on leashes, and "forget" commands. They're dominating us when they do this and it can harm the dog. When they fight with other dogs they're dominating them too... especially in kennels. This can lead (and often does) lead to animals being put down because "they're out of control." We must show dogs how to coexist with us. Abuse is never ok, and leadership doesn't require it at all. Sadly people with the biggest hearts unknowingly enable dogs to dominate them and create bad behaviors. Left in a leadership vacuum, dogs will assume the leadership role to protect their pack from the uncertainty having no leader would create. (to us this often looks like bad behaviors) There's only two roles in dogland...leader and follower. I would not ever trust a dog that thought I was submissive to them. Its dangerous, especially around children.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
8 months ago
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Sorry, but I don't have the vaguest idea what you are talking about in your post. With all due respect, it doesn't make an ounce of sense from a scientific standpoint.
 
Fran G.
Fran G. (MON)
8 months ago
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I don't know what is unclear in my comments and will be glad to help you understand the science if you have any specific questions. I am well versed in the science (as well as formally educated) and experienced in training dogs and horses. While what I have written is scientifically accurate, this is not a scientific forum and we should not be speaking in technical detail or splitting hairs. This forum is to help pet owners with practical advice. That said, I reassert my objection to abusive training techniques. I have never been cruel or harsh or advocated in favor of abuse. My point is simply that social dominance is natural among dogs and that humans should be in the dominant role. They are domesticated animals bred selectively for neotenic traits. They respond well to abundant praise, occasional treats, and gentle correction. They feel more secure if the boundaries are clear and consistently enforced. Positive reinforcement is essential to keep the dog motivated and happy and I have never met a trainer who doesn't believe in positive reinforcement. I would never condone training that involves painful negative reinforcement. So, I don't know what in my earlier post confused you, but I hope this cleared it up.
 
Marty T.
Marty T. (MTrezza)
7 months ago
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Well said, Fran. Thank you.
 
Pia S.
Pia S. (GuinnieGirl)
7 months ago
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Sorry for the confusion, Fran. It was not your post that I was talking about. You are extremely clear and I appreciate your comments and knowledge.
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